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Specifically, what "domestic spying" are you talking about? I'm curious where the line is you're trying to draw.

grey-area 13y ago
Specifically, what "domestic spying" are you talking about? Since you ask: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-n... In particular see the 3rd slide down for the type of information the NSA claims it can collect. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-record... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-in... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-surveillance-subverting-constitution http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-part... I'm curious where the line is you're trying to draw. Can't speak for the OP, but I imagine for most people that line is somewhere well before the mass surveillance of phone records etc which the US is currently engaging in. Are you genuinely confused about why people might oppose that or care about it?
- josh2600 13y ago
  OP here: as many of you know I work in the bowels of the Internet on very large telecom networks and have for most of my career. It has always been assumed that the traffic that leaves the US border was being monitored; I don't think anyone can or will dispute that. The difference is forcing private businesses to place unmarked rooms inside of buildings with vampire fiber taps at All of the major domestic interconnects. That's a problem and completely unnecessary. I object to dragnets, I do not object to lawful intercepts. The distinction might be moot, but if there wasn't a secret fisa court signing all of these documents the monitored parties could even sue. Remember when the NSA got caught monitoring those Arabic students when they sent them their own call records? The students sued the NSA but the court case was thrown out because the NSA argued that even though the students had possession of the call records, they couldn't use them in court because they were classified. What I want is security through tireless effort not through dragnet expediency. It's hard to be the NSA. It's hard to stop terrorists. I believe our country has enough skilled intelligence officials to deliver security without sacrificing liberty. Is that cynical?
  - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
    > I believe our country has enough skilled intelligence officials to deliver security without sacrificing liberty. Just wonderful :-) Have all the up votes I can give you
    - josh2600 13y ago
      Give the EFF your up votes :). https://supporters.eff.org/donate https://supporters.eff.org/donate
      - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
        A very cool response. I can only regretfully say I have joined the Openrightsgroup as they and I are based in the UK. Same sh*t, different politicians.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  That's not a line, that's a bunch of stuff you think is over it. Fine, but where's the line? Supporters of such surveillance have a fairly simple test, and one that's more or less supported by current law and Constitutional jurisprudence: If it's metadata that must be voluntarily exposed to a third party (e.g. a pen register) it's unprotected by the Fourth Amendment. As to actual data, if it crossed national boundaries because one participant can be reasonably determined to be outside the U.S., it can be examined for the same reason your luggage can when you cross the border.
  - josh2600 13y ago
    The line is dragnet versus court order.
    - twoodfin 13y ago
      But those aren't mutually exclusive under U.S. law. All these programs now have FISA warrants, so at least one court "ordered" them. I assume you are unhappy with FISA as it stands, but how would you change it? If you're going to require the NSA to name each and every person whose data they might want to collect, you're going to drastically limit their ability to collect information from foreign sources in an era of throwaway email addresses and burner phones.
      - josh2600 13y ago
        AHEM* RANT AHEAD* I would prevent the NSA from backdating warrants. I would prevent the NSA from being able to wiretap for 7 days without a warrant. I would prevent the NSA from using Vampire Taps in Fiber Optic networks. I would allow the disclosure of National Security Letters and I would block indefinite duration gag orders (10 years is fine; infinity is not). I would hold our intelligence organizations accountable for lying to the public. I would enact a new wiretapping act to prevent these domestic abuses. I would only apply these changes to domestic surveillance. Would I trade security for this liberty? In a heartbeat. The punchline for all of this is simple: all of the ridiculous intelligence and security apparati we've developed since 9/11 don't make us any safer, and, in fact, inspire the very terrorism we seek to disrupt. The $X0Billion dollars we spend every year could be used for much better purposes, like going to Mars.

Specifically, what "domestic spying" are you talking about? Since you ask: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-n... In particular see the 3rd slide down for the type of information the NSA claims it can collect. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-record... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-in... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-surveillance-subverting-constitution http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-part... I'm curious where the line is you're trying to draw. Can't speak for the OP, but I imagine for most people that line is somewhere well before the mass surveillance of phone records etc which the US is currently engaging in. Are you genuinely confused about why people might oppose that or care about it?

josh2600 13y ago
OP here: as many of you know I work in the bowels of the Internet on very large telecom networks and have for most of my career. It has always been assumed that the traffic that leaves the US border was being monitored; I don't think anyone can or will dispute that. The difference is forcing private businesses to place unmarked rooms inside of buildings with vampire fiber taps at All of the major domestic interconnects. That's a problem and completely unnecessary. I object to dragnets, I do not object to lawful intercepts. The distinction might be moot, but if there wasn't a secret fisa court signing all of these documents the monitored parties could even sue. Remember when the NSA got caught monitoring those Arabic students when they sent them their own call records? The students sued the NSA but the court case was thrown out because the NSA argued that even though the students had possession of the call records, they couldn't use them in court because they were classified. What I want is security through tireless effort not through dragnet expediency. It's hard to be the NSA. It's hard to stop terrorists. I believe our country has enough skilled intelligence officials to deliver security without sacrificing liberty. Is that cynical?
- lifeisstillgood 13y ago
  > I believe our country has enough skilled intelligence officials to deliver security without sacrificing liberty. Just wonderful :-) Have all the up votes I can give you
  - josh2600 13y ago
    Give the EFF your up votes :). https://supporters.eff.org/donate https://supporters.eff.org/donate
    - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
      A very cool response. I can only regretfully say I have joined the Openrightsgroup as they and I are based in the UK. Same sh*t, different politicians.
twoodfin 13y ago
That's not a line, that's a bunch of stuff you think is over it. Fine, but where's the line? Supporters of such surveillance have a fairly simple test, and one that's more or less supported by current law and Constitutional jurisprudence: If it's metadata that must be voluntarily exposed to a third party (e.g. a pen register) it's unprotected by the Fourth Amendment. As to actual data, if it crossed national boundaries because one participant can be reasonably determined to be outside the U.S., it can be examined for the same reason your luggage can when you cross the border.
- josh2600 13y ago
  The line is dragnet versus court order.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    But those aren't mutually exclusive under U.S. law. All these programs now have FISA warrants, so at least one court "ordered" them. I assume you are unhappy with FISA as it stands, but how would you change it? If you're going to require the NSA to name each and every person whose data they might want to collect, you're going to drastically limit their ability to collect information from foreign sources in an era of throwaway email addresses and burner phones.
    - josh2600 13y ago
      AHEM* RANT AHEAD* I would prevent the NSA from backdating warrants. I would prevent the NSA from being able to wiretap for 7 days without a warrant. I would prevent the NSA from using Vampire Taps in Fiber Optic networks. I would allow the disclosure of National Security Letters and I would block indefinite duration gag orders (10 years is fine; infinity is not). I would hold our intelligence organizations accountable for lying to the public. I would enact a new wiretapping act to prevent these domestic abuses. I would only apply these changes to domestic surveillance. Would I trade security for this liberty? In a heartbeat. The punchline for all of this is simple: all of the ridiculous intelligence and security apparati we've developed since 9/11 don't make us any safer, and, in fact, inspire the very terrorism we seek to disrupt. The $X0Billion dollars we spend every year could be used for much better purposes, like going to Mars.