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That's where a professional and well-trained workforce is important, with indepenent and very strong regulations. I'm a former US Navy submarine officer, and t

by jedc 18y ago

That's where a professional and well-trained workforce is important, with indepenent and very strong regulations. I'm a former US Navy submarine officer, and the US Navy has been operating nuclear reactors in some of the harshest environments imaginable for 40+ years without any accidents whatsoever. It works because Navy sailors are incredibly well-trained and well-drilled. But also because there is a virtually independent bureaucracy in the US Navy that can literally "take away your keys" to run the plant. (And I do mean literally.) Regular inspections that scare the st out of everyone because of their intensity and thoroughness. But it works, and with no accidents.

miked 18y ago
I'd heard some years ago that the Navy's nuclear operations officers and their nuclear safety officers are not allowed to even talk to each other, just to prevent any chumminess from creeping into the relationship. Is that still true?
Tichy 18y ago
Except that 40 years is nothing. Things can change - look at the former Sowjet Union. Maybe a US president comes to power that withdraws funding from the Navy, and things will start to deteriorate (just making that up, but with really long time frames, all bets are off). Edit: yahooing for "us navy reactor accidents" comes up with quite a few hits, and allegations that mostly the Navy is very secretive about it. Edit2: Even with the best trained staff, the staff is essentially just running an algorithm. Training the staff makes sure they run the algorithm correctly, but it does not protect against bugs in the algorithm. If you are a software developer, you don't believe in bug free algorithms (above a certain complexity).
- ovi256 18y ago
  If you are a software developer, you don't believe in bug free algorithms (above a certain complexity). Please allow me to introduce you to Mr. Donald Knuth (pronounced Kah-nuth). He would like to have a word with you.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    I don't think that example proves anything - although I like Knuth.
- jedc 18y ago
  The technology is really simple. As we occasionally described it: "Hot rock -> make steam -> make boat go." The complexity really comes in the metalurgical issues, in my opinion. 40 years is a substantial period of time. And yes, you CAN find Google results for reactor accidents, but you can also find results about how NASA faked the moon landings. The government has strict definitions about what constitutes a nuclear accident and required to report them. But there are currently nearly 100 active nuclear reactors, and have been for 40+ years. 4000 reactor-years of experience in arguably the harshest conditions possible DOES mean something. I understand your point that things could change. But if we need to reduce emissions NOW, with technology available at scale NOW, nuclear is a very good option.
Adam503 18y ago
Nonsense. "Nuclear submarine leaked radioactive waste into British waters, secret report reveals By Matthew Hickley Last updated at 12:24 AM on 28th April 2009 The Royal Navy's main nuclear submarine base has repeatedly leaked radioactive waste into the sea, previously secret documents show. Radioactive coolant and contaminated water were accidentally dumped into the sea at Faslane, near Glasgow, at least three times in recent years. And an internal Navy report described a 'recurrent theme' of failures to follow safety rules. The nuclear watchdog said problems were so serious it would have considered shutting the base down had it been a civilian operation - but it has no such legal powers over military sites...." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1173881/Nuclear-submarine-leaked-radioactive-waste-British-waters-secret-report-reveals.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1173881/Nuclear-subm... It's NOT safe. There are accidents on a regular basis. They just make any/all the information about these accidents classified state secrets.
- jedc 17y ago
  Unfortunately you're incorrect. Accidents are very strictly defined, and none have happened in the history of the US Navy. There are incidents where reactor water is released into the sea. These are rare, and the radioactivity released is almost minimal. Please recognize that there are different types of radioactivity depending on the elements involved. The highly radioactive particles remain part of the fuel itself. The average volume of water in a reactor contains particles that have quite a short half-life and are typically not widely dangerous. Finally, I was speaking of the US Navy which does operate differently than the UK Navy.
  - Adam503 17y ago
    That's incorrect. "Accidents are very strictly defined, and none have happened in the history of the US Navy..." ...according to what isn't classified as a state secret. We have no idea whether or not the US Gov't has classified 0, 1, or many nuclear accidents the US Navy is responsible for. My clip about the Hanford reactor above stated there were 8 occasions at Hanford in which releases of radiation were classified and made a state secret. You cannot prove the safety record of the US Navy running nuclear reactors is clean, especially considering the limited info available about the losses of the USS Thresher and the USS Scorpian. I can document repeated incidences by US military and it's close allies in which nuclear accidents happened and then those accidents were classified as state secrets.

by jedc 18y ago

miked 18y ago

I'd heard some years ago that the Navy's nuclear operations officers and their nuclear safety officers are not allowed to even talk to each other, just to prevent any chumminess from creeping into the relationship. Is that still true?

Tichy 18y ago

Except that 40 years is nothing. Things can change - look at the former Sowjet Union. Maybe a US president comes to power that withdraws funding from the Navy, and things will start to deteriorate (just making that up, but with really long time frames, all bets are off). Edit: yahooing for "us navy reactor accidents" comes up with quite a few hits, and allegations that mostly the Navy is very secretive about it. Edit2: Even with the best trained staff, the staff is essentially just running an algorithm. Training the staff makes sure they run the algorithm correctly, but it does not protect against bugs in the algorithm. If you are a software developer, you don't believe in bug free algorithms (above a certain complexity).

ovi256 18y ago
If you are a software developer, you don't believe in bug free algorithms (above a certain complexity). Please allow me to introduce you to Mr. Donald Knuth (pronounced Kah-nuth). He would like to have a word with you.
- Tichy 17y ago
  I don't think that example proves anything - although I like Knuth.
jedc 18y ago
The technology is really simple. As we occasionally described it: "Hot rock -> make steam -> make boat go." The complexity really comes in the metalurgical issues, in my opinion. 40 years is a substantial period of time. And yes, you CAN find Google results for reactor accidents, but you can also find results about how NASA faked the moon landings. The government has strict definitions about what constitutes a nuclear accident and required to report them. But there are currently nearly 100 active nuclear reactors, and have been for 40+ years. 4000 reactor-years of experience in arguably the harshest conditions possible DOES mean something. I understand your point that things could change. But if we need to reduce emissions NOW, with technology available at scale NOW, nuclear is a very good option.

Adam503 18y ago

Nonsense. "Nuclear submarine leaked radioactive waste into British waters, secret report reveals By Matthew Hickley Last updated at 12:24 AM on 28th April 2009 The Royal Navy's main nuclear submarine base has repeatedly leaked radioactive waste into the sea, previously secret documents show. Radioactive coolant and contaminated water were accidentally dumped into the sea at Faslane, near Glasgow, at least three times in recent years. And an internal Navy report described a 'recurrent theme' of failures to follow safety rules. The nuclear watchdog said problems were so serious it would have considered shutting the base down had it been a civilian operation - but it has no such legal powers over military sites...." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1173881/Nuclear-submarine-leaked-radioactive-waste-British-waters-secret-report-reveals.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1173881/Nuclear-subm... It's NOT safe. There are accidents on a regular basis. They just make any/all the information about these accidents classified state secrets.

jedc 17y ago
Unfortunately you're incorrect. Accidents are very strictly defined, and none have happened in the history of the US Navy. There are incidents where reactor water is released into the sea. These are rare, and the radioactivity released is almost minimal. Please recognize that there are different types of radioactivity depending on the elements involved. The highly radioactive particles remain part of the fuel itself. The average volume of water in a reactor contains particles that have quite a short half-life and are typically not widely dangerous. Finally, I was speaking of the US Navy which does operate differently than the UK Navy.
- Adam503 17y ago
  That's incorrect. "Accidents are very strictly defined, and none have happened in the history of the US Navy..." ...according to what isn't classified as a state secret. We have no idea whether or not the US Gov't has classified 0, 1, or many nuclear accidents the US Navy is responsible for. My clip about the Hanford reactor above stated there were 8 occasions at Hanford in which releases of radiation were classified and made a state secret. You cannot prove the safety record of the US Navy running nuclear reactors is clean, especially considering the limited info available about the losses of the USS Thresher and the USS Scorpian. I can document repeated incidences by US military and it's close allies in which nuclear accidents happened and then those accidents were classified as state secrets.