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Snowden has claimed that the US is clandestinely tapping into foreign backbones, is it so hard to imagine they aren't doing it domestically?

tptacek 13y ago
Say what? Clandestine foreign signals intelligence is NSA's charter; it's the entire reason the agency exists. It does not follow logically that because NSA is executing its duties to its lawful charter, it must also be exceeding its authority domestically.
- temphn 13y ago
  What? They most certainly are exceeding their legal bounds domestically. It's called the Fourth Amendment And who even knows what the NSA's "lawful charter" is? Secret interpretations of laws (meaning secret laws) evidently mean it's ok for them to capture the phone records (and, as reported, credit card statements) of everyone. They lie about what they are doing under oath and they hunt, jail, and kill those who tell the truth. They prevented these unconstitutional secret interpretations of the law from getting to the courts or to the public. That's the only reason why they haven't been struck down.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    You wrote a comment above saying that because NSA taps overseas cables, it's probably tapping domestic communications. I responded, "tapping overseas cables is NSA's stated mission, and so it doesn't follow that they're tapping domestic communications". You responded that of course they're exceeding their legal bounds, because the Fourth Amendment restricts them, which of course begs the question.
    - temphn 13y ago
      "tapping overseas cables is NSA's stated mission, and so it doesn't follow that they're tapping domestic communications". http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-bigger-data-seizure http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-big... Deep in the oceans, hundreds of cables carry much of the world's phone and Internet traffic. Since at least the early 1970s, the NSA has been tapping foreign cables. It doesn't need permission. That's its job. But Internet data doesn't care about borders. Send an email from Pakistan to Afghanistan and it might pass through a mail server in the United States, the same computer that handles messages to and from Americans. The NSA is prohibited from spying on Americans or anyone inside the United States. That's the FBI's job and it requires a warrant. Despite that prohibition, shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, President George W. Bush secretly authorized the NSA to plug into the fiber optic cables that enter and leave the United States, knowing it would give the government unprecedented, warrantless access to Americans' private conversations.
- joeguilmette 13y ago
  Clandestine foreign signals intelligence is their charter indeed. But looking at the means they use in regards to their stated charter can give us hints as to how they operate domestically. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/305047-dem-rep-lawmakers-learned-significantly-more-about-surveillance-programs-in-nsa-briefing http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/305047-dem-... So if PRISM is just the tip of the iceberg, what method do you suggest for speculating as to what exactly they are doing domestically? Maybe, say, look what they are doing overseas?

tptacek 13y ago

Say what? Clandestine foreign signals intelligence is NSA's charter; it's the entire reason the agency exists. It does not follow logically that because NSA is executing its duties to its lawful charter, it must also be exceeding its authority domestically.

temphn 13y ago
What? They most certainly are exceeding their legal bounds domestically. It's called the Fourth Amendment And who even knows what the NSA's "lawful charter" is? Secret interpretations of laws (meaning secret laws) evidently mean it's ok for them to capture the phone records (and, as reported, credit card statements) of everyone. They lie about what they are doing under oath and they hunt, jail, and kill those who tell the truth. They prevented these unconstitutional secret interpretations of the law from getting to the courts or to the public. That's the only reason why they haven't been struck down.
- tptacek 13y ago
  You wrote a comment above saying that because NSA taps overseas cables, it's probably tapping domestic communications. I responded, "tapping overseas cables is NSA's stated mission, and so it doesn't follow that they're tapping domestic communications". You responded that of course they're exceeding their legal bounds, because the Fourth Amendment restricts them, which of course begs the question.
  - temphn 13y ago
    "tapping overseas cables is NSA's stated mission, and so it doesn't follow that they're tapping domestic communications". http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-bigger-data-seizure http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-big... Deep in the oceans, hundreds of cables carry much of the world's phone and Internet traffic. Since at least the early 1970s, the NSA has been tapping foreign cables. It doesn't need permission. That's its job. But Internet data doesn't care about borders. Send an email from Pakistan to Afghanistan and it might pass through a mail server in the United States, the same computer that handles messages to and from Americans. The NSA is prohibited from spying on Americans or anyone inside the United States. That's the FBI's job and it requires a warrant. Despite that prohibition, shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, President George W. Bush secretly authorized the NSA to plug into the fiber optic cables that enter and leave the United States, knowing it would give the government unprecedented, warrantless access to Americans' private conversations.
joeguilmette 13y ago
Clandestine foreign signals intelligence is their charter indeed. But looking at the means they use in regards to their stated charter can give us hints as to how they operate domestically. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/305047-dem-rep-lawmakers-learned-significantly-more-about-surveillance-programs-in-nsa-briefing http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/305047-dem-... So if PRISM is just the tip of the iceberg, what method do you suggest for speculating as to what exactly they are doing domestically? Maybe, say, look what they are doing overseas?