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Question about WinFS. I saw a video presentation of it floating around the web. They demonstrated various kinds of objects representing contacts, documents, mus

Question about WinFS. I saw a video presentation of it floating around the web. They demonstrated various kinds of objects representing contacts, documents, music files, etc. Where these object types extensible? I.e. were the metadata fields static? For example, if the "song" type had the standard fields (title, artist, album, year, etc) could I add another one (e.g. "producer")?

WalterGR 13y ago
Where these object types extensible? Yes. I.e. were the metadata fields static? Well, yes, but that doesn't preclude extensibility. In WinFS terminology, object types were called Item types; object instances were called Items. From the docs: "An item is the equivalent of an object in object-oriented programming. It has a complex structure, specific behavior, and operations described by the 'WinFS' schemas." So one way to extend an Item type was to create a derived type (i.e. use inheritance.) WinFS also supported what it called item extensions, which were basically "small objects" that you could associate with existing objects. They were for things like reminders, which don't mean much on their own and could apply to many different Item types. For your scenario, creating a derived type would probably have been the right solution. EDIT: Well, now that I think about it, what if every different music app created its own Song subclass? So inheritance might not be the right choice. Ahh, that's the kind of thing I deeply love thinking about! I hope that one day I can rejoin the ranks of the lab-coated guardians of epistemology. (Nod to "Metacrap: Putting the torch to seven straw-men of the meta-utopia" by Cory Doctorow. http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm)
- dharmatech 13y ago
  Thanks for the info! What's your opinion of file-tagging systems like Tabbles and the new file tagging feature in OS X finder? Tabbles is a far cry from full WinFS, but it enables some interesting organizational techniques. I've been using it lately and I like it. But tags don't always seem to be enough. In addition to tags, I'd like to have genuine fields. Seems like a NoSQL database would be a decent core for a poor-man's WinFS implementation.
  - WalterGR 13y ago
    What's your opinion of file-tagging systems like Tabbles and the new file tagging feature in OS X finder? Actually, I haven't been keeping up with new tools and techniques for information management since WinFS died. I took a look at the Tabbles website and watched one of the videos. It seems good! You're right, it's not full WinFS, but with hierarchical tags you can go a long way towards manually solving some of the same problems. I'll have to take it for a spin. I just did a quick Google search for OS X 10.9's tagging. It looks like it doesn't support hierarchical tags? If it doesn't, then personally it's a non-starter. (I'd dig in to them more, but I have to be brief: I'm not sure when HN disallows new replies to comments...) Seems like a NoSQL database would be a decent core for a poor-man's WinFS implementation. Prior to joining WinFS I was working on my own solution to kind of the same thing as WinFS. I was going to use a traditional RDBMS - Perforce, actually. In retrospect, I was basically looking to serialize a graph to/from the relational model. At that time, I don't think I knew graph databases existed - I'm definitely going to look into them when I pick up the problem again. NoSQL + graph database? That could be very interesting. In re. your other comment: Thanks for the link! I'll take a look at that. If you love thinking about this sort of stuff, maybe you should get back into it! :-) It's dangerous! One day I'm focusing on solving specific use cases, and the next I'm a hermit in the woods asking, "What does it mean to mean?" ;) But, you're right. For several years I've been working on self-employment, with the goal of being self-sufficient so I could devote my time to solving my "forever" problems - the #1 problem being this one. That didn't work out, so I'm on the job market. This thread has re-inspired me. Maybe I can find a position solving these problems full-time. That would be great. It seems like you're interested in the same problem space? Definitely hit me up via email: waltergr@gmail.com
- dharmatech 13y ago
  By the way, check out this project posted by user "freework" above: https://github.com/priestc/Library-Transfer-Protocol https://github.com/priestc/Library-Transfer-Protocol It's WinFS inspired. If you love thinking about this sort of stuff, maybe you should get back into it! :-)

WalterGR 13y ago

Where these object types extensible? Yes. I.e. were the metadata fields static? Well, yes, but that doesn't preclude extensibility. In WinFS terminology, object types were called Item types; object instances were called Items. From the docs: "An item is the equivalent of an object in object-oriented programming. It has a complex structure, specific behavior, and operations described by the 'WinFS' schemas." So one way to extend an Item type was to create a derived type (i.e. use inheritance.) WinFS also supported what it called item extensions, which were basically "small objects" that you could associate with existing objects. They were for things like reminders, which don't mean much on their own and could apply to many different Item types. For your scenario, creating a derived type would probably have been the right solution. EDIT: Well, now that I think about it, what if every different music app created its own Song subclass? So inheritance might not be the right choice. Ahh, that's the kind of thing I deeply love thinking about! I hope that one day I can rejoin the ranks of the lab-coated guardians of epistemology. (Nod to "Metacrap: Putting the torch to seven straw-men of the meta-utopia" by Cory Doctorow. http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm)

dharmatech 13y ago
Thanks for the info! What's your opinion of file-tagging systems like Tabbles and the new file tagging feature in OS X finder? Tabbles is a far cry from full WinFS, but it enables some interesting organizational techniques. I've been using it lately and I like it. But tags don't always seem to be enough. In addition to tags, I'd like to have genuine fields. Seems like a NoSQL database would be a decent core for a poor-man's WinFS implementation.
- WalterGR 13y ago
  What's your opinion of file-tagging systems like Tabbles and the new file tagging feature in OS X finder? Actually, I haven't been keeping up with new tools and techniques for information management since WinFS died. I took a look at the Tabbles website and watched one of the videos. It seems good! You're right, it's not full WinFS, but with hierarchical tags you can go a long way towards manually solving some of the same problems. I'll have to take it for a spin. I just did a quick Google search for OS X 10.9's tagging. It looks like it doesn't support hierarchical tags? If it doesn't, then personally it's a non-starter. (I'd dig in to them more, but I have to be brief: I'm not sure when HN disallows new replies to comments...) Seems like a NoSQL database would be a decent core for a poor-man's WinFS implementation. Prior to joining WinFS I was working on my own solution to kind of the same thing as WinFS. I was going to use a traditional RDBMS - Perforce, actually. In retrospect, I was basically looking to serialize a graph to/from the relational model. At that time, I don't think I knew graph databases existed - I'm definitely going to look into them when I pick up the problem again. NoSQL + graph database? That could be very interesting. In re. your other comment: Thanks for the link! I'll take a look at that. If you love thinking about this sort of stuff, maybe you should get back into it! :-) It's dangerous! One day I'm focusing on solving specific use cases, and the next I'm a hermit in the woods asking, "What does it mean to mean?" ;) But, you're right. For several years I've been working on self-employment, with the goal of being self-sufficient so I could devote my time to solving my "forever" problems - the #1 problem being this one. That didn't work out, so I'm on the job market. This thread has re-inspired me. Maybe I can find a position solving these problems full-time. That would be great. It seems like you're interested in the same problem space? Definitely hit me up via email: waltergr@gmail.com
dharmatech 13y ago
By the way, check out this project posted by user "freework" above: https://github.com/priestc/Library-Transfer-Protocol https://github.com/priestc/Library-Transfer-Protocol It's WinFS inspired. If you love thinking about this sort of stuff, maybe you should get back into it! :-)