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It would be nice if people realized that the United States was built upon the premise that the individual is sovereign, not the states. Your rights come from Go

It would be nice if people realized that the United States was built upon the premise that the individual is sovereign, not the states. Your rights come from God, not government. Many think they have all the freedom they need, since they can drive (most places) with no papers and download whatever apps they want on their phones. The government is heading down a very dangerous path and has been for a long time. Members of both major parties are too blame, for they have allowed government to grow to a scale that is far too large to leave room for the individual to be truly free.

jivatmanx 13y ago
When people use the "Nothing to hide", or "The government does not care about your cat videos, this is the equivalent of: I'm not using my liberty, so I don't care about it. The government may not be interested in you specifically, but they are interested in the more influential figures who share those same opinions. The HBGary leak revealed the targeting of Glenn Greenwald, and surely you're aware of MLK. What if he had had some minor personal failing, and the FBI had used it against him to derail his movement?
- mpyne 13y ago
  MLK did have "minor personal failings", IIRC.
gnaritas 13y ago
> Your rights come from God, not government. No, my rights come what the people are willing to fight for and establish with government. Absent government, there are no rights, there is only what I'm willing to claim my rights are and what I can defend. There is no God and nature doesn't create rights.
- betterunix 13y ago
  You have rights regardless of the government. Absent government, you have the right to do whatever you want, as does everyone else. The proper purpose of the government is to protect your rights from other people; this is done by carefully and judiciously placing restrictions on everyone's rights via the law. Legal codes should be as minimalist as possible, to ensure people can exercise their rights as broadly as possible. Of course, the question of whether rights exist in the absence of government or if rights are created by the law is as old as the hills, so we may have to just disagree on this one.
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    We'll just have to disagree, because pretty much everything you just said is IMHO nonsense.
- clarkmoody 13y ago
  From the point of the premise of America, they do :-)
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    No, they don't; the premise of America is the Constitution and it doesn't mention God. You're thinking of the Declaration of Independence which is little more than a fuck you to England, it is not however our founding document nor does it reflect our principles which were actually hammered out by the Constitution as a that of a secular nation.
    - SamReidHughes 13y ago
      Replace "God" with "self-evident." You are wrong and missing the metaphor.
      - gnaritas 13y ago
        God is not equal to self evident, and I'm not wrong.
        jlgreco 13y ago
        To one using "god" as a figure of speech, "self-evident" and "god" are sufficiently equivalent for the purposes of this discussion. You can consider both concepts to imply that the subject is considered beyond question and in need of no external justification. I have no literal believe in gods, but I use the terminology semi-frequently in the manner being described.
        gnaritas 13y ago
        The word god is in no way equivalent to self evident and if you use it as such you're simply not communicating well and likely not getting your point across to those listening. Worse, you're using a term that will turn off listeners who tire of religious nonsense being injected in conversations about important issues. There's nothing less self evident than a god, they are certainly not synonyms.
malkia 13y ago
I'm an atheist, there is no God for me.
- burntsushi 13y ago
  There's no God for me either, but isn't that a pedantic point? I think it could just as easily read as > Your rights come from our nature, not government.
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    Reading it that way doesn't make it make any more sense.
    - burntsushi 13y ago
      That's irrelevant. (And I disagree.)
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  I think he meant more of a metaphorical god in the "We hold these truths to be self-evident" sense.
- betterunix 13y ago
  It is just a figure of speech, don't be pedantic about this.
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    Your rights come from God is not a figure of speech; it's a statement of belief in God and it's not pedantic to point this out.
    - betterunix 13y ago
      No, it is a figure of speech and it is pedantic to claim that it is about belief in any deity. It is similarly used in this context: "God gave you legs, now move your ass out of my way!" It is nothing more than a way to express the idea that rights are something people are born with, regardless of who is in power or what sort of government rules over them. That is how the founding fathers (another figure of speech, nobody is claiming that any of those men are any living person's father) used the term.

jivatmanx 13y ago

When people use the "Nothing to hide", or "The government does not care about your cat videos, this is the equivalent of: I'm not using my liberty, so I don't care about it. The government may not be interested in you specifically, but they are interested in the more influential figures who share those same opinions. The HBGary leak revealed the targeting of Glenn Greenwald, and surely you're aware of MLK. What if he had had some minor personal failing, and the FBI had used it against him to derail his movement?

mpyne 13y ago
MLK did have "minor personal failings", IIRC.

gnaritas 13y ago

> Your rights come from God, not government. No, my rights come what the people are willing to fight for and establish with government. Absent government, there are no rights, there is only what I'm willing to claim my rights are and what I can defend. There is no God and nature doesn't create rights.

betterunix 13y ago
You have rights regardless of the government. Absent government, you have the right to do whatever you want, as does everyone else. The proper purpose of the government is to protect your rights from other people; this is done by carefully and judiciously placing restrictions on everyone's rights via the law. Legal codes should be as minimalist as possible, to ensure people can exercise their rights as broadly as possible. Of course, the question of whether rights exist in the absence of government or if rights are created by the law is as old as the hills, so we may have to just disagree on this one.
- gnaritas 13y ago
  We'll just have to disagree, because pretty much everything you just said is IMHO nonsense.
clarkmoody 13y ago
From the point of the premise of America, they do :-)
- gnaritas 13y ago
  No, they don't; the premise of America is the Constitution and it doesn't mention God. You're thinking of the Declaration of Independence which is little more than a fuck you to England, it is not however our founding document nor does it reflect our principles which were actually hammered out by the Constitution as a that of a secular nation.
  - SamReidHughes 13y ago
    Replace "God" with "self-evident." You are wrong and missing the metaphor.
    - gnaritas 13y ago
      God is not equal to self evident, and I'm not wrong.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        To one using "god" as a figure of speech, "self-evident" and "god" are sufficiently equivalent for the purposes of this discussion. You can consider both concepts to imply that the subject is considered beyond question and in need of no external justification. I have no literal believe in gods, but I use the terminology semi-frequently in the manner being described.
        gnaritas 13y ago
        The word god is in no way equivalent to self evident and if you use it as such you're simply not communicating well and likely not getting your point across to those listening. Worse, you're using a term that will turn off listeners who tire of religious nonsense being injected in conversations about important issues. There's nothing less self evident than a god, they are certainly not synonyms.

malkia 13y ago

I'm an atheist, there is no God for me.

burntsushi 13y ago
There's no God for me either, but isn't that a pedantic point? I think it could just as easily read as > Your rights come from our nature, not government.
- gnaritas 13y ago
  Reading it that way doesn't make it make any more sense.
  - burntsushi 13y ago
    That's irrelevant. (And I disagree.)
jiggy2011 13y ago
I think he meant more of a metaphorical god in the "We hold these truths to be self-evident" sense.
betterunix 13y ago
It is just a figure of speech, don't be pedantic about this.
- gnaritas 13y ago
  Your rights come from God is not a figure of speech; it's a statement of belief in God and it's not pedantic to point this out.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    No, it is a figure of speech and it is pedantic to claim that it is about belief in any deity. It is similarly used in this context: "God gave you legs, now move your ass out of my way!" It is nothing more than a way to express the idea that rights are something people are born with, regardless of who is in power or what sort of government rules over them. That is how the founding fathers (another figure of speech, nobody is claiming that any of those men are any living person's father) used the term.