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the best thing about these css frameworks is because they are built to be maintained and such, reading through them can give you ideas for coding practices. if

the best thing about these css frameworks is because they are built to be maintained and such, reading through them can give you ideas for coding practices. if you can't write your own css, then you're a document creator, much like someone who edits a word document. of all the complexities involved in web development, css is a minor one, and you don't need a framework (javascript is a different story). someone had to say it.

jbarciauskas 17y ago
It's not about can or cannot, it's about productivity. If you choose not to write your own assembly language / compiler for every project then you're just a code monkey? CSS is very complex. It's true that you only need to grasp a few concepts to be productive in coding CSS for Firefox, but once you need cross-browser support, and even better, IE6 support, well, you need to learn about all the pitfalls and inconsistencies and how to avoid them or how to fix them on each platform, and that is a menial, unrewarding, frustrating, time-consuming task. Books like Bulletproof Web Design are helpful, but in the end the message there is, "Don't do what you want, do what is easy". If you need pixel-level design precision, you're going to be spending a lot of time and pain getting things ironed out. Or you can see if a framework meets your needs.
ssharp 17y ago
CSS resets are extremely useful and there is little need to reinvent them every time you make a page. A lot of people will eventually come up with their own base typography rules at some point as well. And grids are extremely helpful in eliminating some headaches and speeding up development. These are all components of most frameworks. None of these "frameworks" do much of anything besides some routine stuff that saves your some start up time. Telling everyone that they don't need them is a bit ridiculous. If it saves you time, makes your life easier, or have some other benefit to you, they are worth your time. For example, 960 isn't a "framework" in the same magnitude that RoR or JQuery is a framework. The problems that a CSS framework solves are much smaller than most other frameworks. 960 took all of 10 seconds to figure out and has been helpful in quickly tossing page layouts together. It has shown itself to be very reliable across browsers and certainly beats having to test your CSS layouts on IE, Firefox and Safari. The constant edit-save-refresh CSS testing cycle is a lot easier with a CSS reset and manageable grid system. Also, with 960, you aren't running away from CSS. You still need to know CSS to do anything useful with it, it just solves a few immediate issues with CSS and then gets out of your way.
- sachmanb 17y ago
  agreed on css reset, i use "Reset Reloaded" http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/ http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/

jbarciauskas 17y ago

It's not about can or cannot, it's about productivity. If you choose not to write your own assembly language / compiler for every project then you're just a code monkey? CSS is very complex. It's true that you only need to grasp a few concepts to be productive in coding CSS for Firefox, but once you need cross-browser support, and even better, IE6 support, well, you need to learn about all the pitfalls and inconsistencies and how to avoid them or how to fix them on each platform, and that is a menial, unrewarding, frustrating, time-consuming task. Books like Bulletproof Web Design are helpful, but in the end the message there is, "Don't do what you want, do what is easy". If you need pixel-level design precision, you're going to be spending a lot of time and pain getting things ironed out. Or you can see if a framework meets your needs.

ssharp 17y ago

CSS resets are extremely useful and there is little need to reinvent them every time you make a page. A lot of people will eventually come up with their own base typography rules at some point as well. And grids are extremely helpful in eliminating some headaches and speeding up development. These are all components of most frameworks. None of these "frameworks" do much of anything besides some routine stuff that saves your some start up time. Telling everyone that they don't need them is a bit ridiculous. If it saves you time, makes your life easier, or have some other benefit to you, they are worth your time. For example, 960 isn't a "framework" in the same magnitude that RoR or JQuery is a framework. The problems that a CSS framework solves are much smaller than most other frameworks. 960 took all of 10 seconds to figure out and has been helpful in quickly tossing page layouts together. It has shown itself to be very reliable across browsers and certainly beats having to test your CSS layouts on IE, Firefox and Safari. The constant edit-save-refresh CSS testing cycle is a lot easier with a CSS reset and manageable grid system. Also, with 960, you aren't running away from CSS. You still need to know CSS to do anything useful with it, it just solves a few immediate issues with CSS and then gets out of your way.

sachmanb 17y ago
agreed on css reset, i use "Reset Reloaded" http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/ http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/