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NSA leaker Edward Snowden: U.S. targets China with hackers

93 points by zwieback 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago
Every network security professional in the US believes the US sponsors, coordinates, and executes online attacks against China (as China clearly does to the US). This is a little like a "revelation" from a sysadmin for a drone C&C site that the US does indeed engage in drone strikes.
- tikums 13y ago
  Emperor's New Clothes. By openly restating something that has been "obvious", "implicit" or "well known", we've been served with a wake-up call.
apalmer 13y ago
But it has been clear for a while that Snowden is not in it strictly for the heroism... the tone/slant and other circumstantial info to my mind seems to align him more with espionage than true whistleblowing.
- ollysb 13y ago
  I've yet to see an opportunity for much personal gain on his part, what's caused you to cast him in that light?
  - Kylekramer 13y ago
    This is still early in the story, but you don't see how Snowden stands to gain by holding inside information about America's Chinese hacking whilst in a territory controlled by China?
    - SiVal 13y ago
      Obama's administration had just begun officially condemning China for their relentless cyberattacks in statements made by senior officials. Obama himself was a few days away from a meeting with the Chinese premier in which he was signaling that he was going to openly criticize China for these attacks. Suddenly, a guy who has had this information for several years decides that NOW is the moment he must step forward with his revelations. He runs off to China (yes, Hong Kong is China), and "confesses" that his agency has been cyberattacking China. How remarkably convenient this must be for China at this moment, and how remarkably coincidental that he chose China to run away to. Coincidences happen, of course, but I'm not ready to gush about Snowdon's patriotism just yet.
      - ollysb 13y ago
        If I was in Snowdon's position I'd be taking every measure possible to protect myself from America. If that is his game it sounds like a sensible strategy, he's certainly not going to be getting any support from his home country.
  - apalmer 13y ago
    ummmm lets play devils advocate, how much would China pay Snowden for the design documents, specifications, etc for an advanced system for monitoring and extracting an entire nations online and phone habits? keep in mind china fairly recently got busted stealing of cybersitters net nanny software to power their national green dam project. How much would the propaganda value of China being able to shirk its label as human rights invasion of internet privacy by showing that the USA is doing the same thing be worth? China protecting freedom of expression online... Snowden is very clearly signalling that he has a lot more secrets, and would like to get some kind of special consideration from china. in particular he seems to be claiming he has a lot of info on US cyber attacks on China, which in no way are 'protecting the US constitution' and in everyway are good old fashion espionage. ... then again wonder if Snowden is going to be the justification for even stronger snooping once he turns out to be a spy.
    - tdirect 13y ago
      He has not at all signaled, so far, that he would like any special consideration from China. He has not claimed to have "a lot of info" on US cyber attacks on China. He has said he would let Hong Kong decide whether he deserves protection from extradition. He has said the U.S. is cyber-attacking China. This is important information for the U.S. public to know when the U.S. government is criticizing China for cyber attacks. How can people hold the executive branch accountable when they're basically being lied to? ("The Chinese are cyber-attacking us, and we only defend...") Is there a primary aggressor in the cyber war? It's an important question. Suggesting he is a spy for revealing very non-specific information that the Chinese government already knows but the American people do not is ridiculous.
- betterunix 13y ago
  Espionage is typically conducted in secret. Snowden publicly released the documents and publicly announced his role as the leaker.
  - apalmer 13y ago
    I mean i don't know if he is a very naive dude who came up with his own (bad) way of trying to work his way into the chinese good graces... or if he is a very slick operative and this whole thing is part of a propaganda operation as he defects to China. All I can say is he stole all kinds of classified documents, revealed some to cause an uproar in the US and paint himself as a hero, immediately flew to the one other super power in the worlds sphere of influence and started advertising he needs help and has a whole lot more documents that would be of keen interest to said super power
    - tdirect 13y ago
      How is he advertising such a thing? He specifically said he carefully chose documents that would be in the public interest and not documents that would be a threat to national security.
    - polyfractal 13y ago
      OR he's just a whistleblower trying to do the right thing for the States.
brown9-2 13y ago
Isn't this sort of the entire purpose of an signals intelligence agency? China is a target of US hacking. The US is a target of Chinese hacking. And so on and so forth for any other country's names you can swap in or any other intelligence gathering mechanism you can replace "hacking" with. One part of this story that has always seemed baffling is his shock that espionage, the act of stealing secrets or convincing someone to betray their oaths and steal secrets for you, requires some less-than-moral activities. And by disclosing that he possesses documents that he says describe U.S. hacking against China, he appeared to be trying to win support from the Chinese government. This seems to be transitioning from leaking to let Americans know how their civil rights are being violated into something else.
- krapp 13y ago
  Even with all of this going on, affront to liberty that it is, I'd be more upset if we weren't trying to hack China. An up and coming communist superpower, and a potential military and technological rival? Of course we're trying to hack the bejesus out of them. Everything we accuse them of doing - penetrating our media, penetrating our infrastructure, whatever, we're trying to do. This is not even controversial, this is the part of their job they're supposed to be doing, 'owning other countries.'
  - brown9-2 13y ago
    This isn't even that much of a reveal by Snowden considering 1) the Chinese would already know about this and 2) a lot of details about NSA's TAO group have already been published (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_nsa_s_ultra_secret_china_hacking_group http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_...). So now he is using the secrets he learned to buy favor from the Chinese government?
    - tdirect 13y ago
      If he did indeed reveal this, how is it "buying favor from the Chinese government"? It's hard to imagine the government of China doesn't already know about these attacks. The beneficiary of this information is the U.S. public, so they can actually have a real discussion about cyber warfare, rather than simply believing the government line of "China hacks us, and we only defend...". How can we have a real discussion about our role in the world if we're told only about foreign aggression and not our own?
josh2600 13y ago
This isn't news. When you look at Keith Alexander's profile, just what do you think "Operations" are? http://www.nsa.gov/about/leadership/bio_alexander.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/about/leadership/bio_alexander.shtml
- apalmer 13y ago
  This is absolutely true, but it doesnt seem to be in line with the 'whistleblower' image that has been projected so far, and more in line with plain espionage. It appears to my jaded eye that Snowden copied everything possible while in the NSA, revealed a certain amount to rile up the public opinion in his favor and to cover over the fact he was copying everything in sight. He seems to be positioning himself as a literal espionage agent right now, giving operational secrets or at least implying he is willing to reveal operational secrets for special treatment from china... and no doubt money. The tone of his statements seem to be like a chinese propaganda mouth peice right now... funny how things are never as simple as they look at first glance
  - tdirect 13y ago
    > giving operational secrets or at least implying he is willing to reveal operational secrets for special treatment from china... and no doubt money Could you please offer citation?
peripetylabs 13y ago
Although this wasn't news to most people here, keep in mind that the US has always denied doing economic espionage, against China or anyone else. The Snowden leak also revealed that the largest target of US espionage in Europe is Germany -- I can't think of any reason for that other than economic espionage. This certainly raises questions.
tokenadult 13y ago
I should hope so. At a minimum, even in a time of peace between China and the United States, the United States should be aware of what online vulnerabilities China has, whether to advise China on how to reduce those during an alliance, or whether to make use of those during a conflict. (After all, it is plain enough that China looks at the issue as one such that it has to find out what vulnerabilities the United States government and private businesses have.) From the article: "Snowden’s claims could not be verified, and U.S. officials did not respond to immediate requests for comment."
Jd 13y ago
A bizarre play by Snowden, who seems to have gone to Hong Kong in order to be in the strange space that currently exists between the US and China right now, where despite the normal standard of extradition from HK to the US, there exists the possibility of a Chinese veto. Here, I think Snowden is primarily stalling for time, saying that if China helps his cause (i.e. not allowing him to be extradited) he might do something that helps China. I don't really know how I feel about this either ethically or as a strategy, but it certainly could play out to Snowden's personal advantage after a bit of time on the international stage. I'd imagine some pretty senior level guys will get involved, and they will decide what to do with Snowden. That said, regardless of his ultimate fate, this does seem like a legitimate and probably successful tactic for him to buy himself a bit more time in Hong Kong. The Chinese government will probably want to know what he knows, but they will presumably also have to wait for him to reveal what he is willing to over time. Keep in mind Snowden has already hinted he knows some pretty "dirty secrets" and given his crypto background, etc. it is possible he has some sort of other treasure trove of documents that he hasn't handed over to the reporters yet -- this is sort of an ugly and dangerous game, but I'm sure he knew that from the moment he set things in motion.
- aswanson 13y ago
  I'm not so certain he thought things through as far you give him credit for. He seems to be just playing it by ear; not the long-term consequence type thinker. How noble is it to give up state secrets from a country that monitors its citizens to a country that more heavily monitors its citizens, actively represses the flow of information into its borders, and allows only one political party. He's starting to look stupid and short-sighted if this is true.
  - tdirect 13y ago
    I don't think he has given any information from one country to another. He has revealed to the American people that they are taking an offensive rather than merely defensive role in a hacking war with China. This is important for the American people to know--how can anyone come to a reasonable conclusion about the issue if they only hear the government line that China is hacking and the U.S. is just defending? China has also received this information, but it's ridiculous to believe they didn't already know there were hacking attempts.
tomjen3 13y ago
Hmm, it is one thing to leak secrets that may be relevant for the public at large. It is quite another to give secrets to your countries competitors.
- tdirect 13y ago
  That the U.S. may be the cyber aggressor is very important information for the American people. If this is the case, it's difficult to believe the government of China doesn't already know...
Kiro 13y ago
Not a big fan of this guy tbh.
tzs 13y ago
I am very puzzled: > And by disclosing that he possesses documents that he says describe U.S. hacking against China, he appeared to be trying to win support from the Chinese government. China is known to be active in hacking attempts against US government and US industrial targets. They would therefore be greatly interested in any inside information they could get about US defenses against such attempts. The NSA would likely have information on those defenses. I would expect, then, that China would be quite interested in getting their hands on any NSA employee with a high security clearance in order to question them about those defenses. Snowden is publicly known to be a person. He likely has information that would also help China with their own internal spying programs. And now, Snowden is letting China know that he's got even more valuable information of particular interest to them. Given this, WHY did he pick Honk Kong to flee to? If China wants that information (and it is hard to see how they could not want it), their best move is to kidnap him and blame it on foreign agents (hinting that they think the US took him--which many people would find quite believable) and make him turn over his information to them.
- youngerdryas 13y ago
  Even better he turns himself over to them in exchange for a Communist party position.
- apalmer 13y ago
  because its simpler to pay him instead of kidnapping him. he is a spy thats all there really is to it it seems
- diminoten 13y ago
  Because he's a traitor, that's why. And not your Bradley Manning, "fuzzy lines" kind of whistleblower.
  - rdouble 13y ago
    He's only a traitor if the American public is now the enemy.
    - 13y ago
mpyne 13y ago
Breaking news from NSA leaker Snowden: "Water is wet, Cubs won't win the Series."
skwirl 13y ago
While the facts of the statement would not be surprising to anyone, making these kind of statements are not going to help Snowden as he is viewed in the United States. I don't view this at all as a noble leak. This particular leak seems to be blatantly self serving and he seems to be outright threatening to harm U.S. national security to keep the U.S. off his back and to keep in favor of the Chinese government.
joonix 13y ago
And his systems administrator position in Hawaii for a contractor gives him access to records of this hacking? If so, where are the documents? Seems he's trying to build a platform and turn into a pundit/commentator. A whistleblower should just hand over documents and attest to what he's seen personally from his/her inside position.
wissler 13y ago
"According to Snowden, the NSA has engaged in more than 61,000 hacking operations worldwide, including hundreds aimed at Chinese targets. Among the targets were universities, businesses and public officials." So a tiny fraction are aimed at China, and this is the headline that's chosen? Did Snowden himself specifically call out China or is it just the reporter doing that?
- Kylekramer 13y ago
  This is the article WaPo is taking its info from: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-sn... It is a HK paper, so maybe the local angle is being pushed. And it doesn't have direct quotes from him about Chinese hacking. Still, it is an odd thing to even bring up and provide documents regarding considering how much it would call his credibility into question. Especially with how much control he had over the interview.
tome 13y ago
Well, I supported Snowden till now. What was the point of saying this? Firstly, it's obvious. Secondly, it's not in the national interest of US citizens to have this openly talked about.
- jstedfast 13y ago
  if it was so obvious, why did it turn you against him? did your delicate sensibilities get hurt or something? I honestly don't understand how this could have change your opinion on him based on something you not only acknowledge is true, but also as "obvious".
  - tome 13y ago
    Because it changes my impression of what he's in this game for. My first impression was that he wanted to make the US government look bad in the eyes of US citizens, so the citizens could fix the problem. Now my impression is that he wants to make the US look bad in terms of its foreign policy, which is something entirely different.
    - tdirect 13y ago
      I think this differs very little from the other revelations. This does make the government look bad in the eyes of US citizens--why are we crying foul at China when we are doing exactly the same thing, and may even be the more aggressive party? If we are conducting this sort of warfare, the citizenry needs to know. It's probably a better issue to face publicly than to let it slowly morph into a new cold war espionage situation with China.
skygazer 13y ago
My sympathy erodes as he diverges from whistle-blower to indiscriminate national secret revealer. He's now distracting from, and deminishing the impact of the primary story: the government massively trampling our personal privacy. Perhaps he's trying to raise support in Hong Kong, but he may well lose it in the US.
noiseapple 13y ago
Edward Snowden joined the communist?
quannabe 13y ago
File this under 'No shit'...
grecy 13y ago
While many in the tech community won't see this as news, I think it's important for the American people to realize what the government is doing to other countries on their behalf. For anyone that doesn't know what I'm talking about, I strongly suggest you spend some time in any of Honduras, Panama, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, etc. People in those countries don't "Hate Americans because of their Freedom(TM)", they dislike America for what it's done to their countries for decades. Americans need to know about this kind of action being taken by their government so they can have input on whether it should continue or not. EDIT: Yes, I meant "Kind of action" ... thanks.
- Fishkins 13y ago
  I've never been in any of those countries, but I totally agree with the sentiment. By the way, you meant "kind of action," right? Unless that was irony.
- smtddr 13y ago
  ^ This right here is why I don't even bother debating some issues with some people. I just know feelings/pride is going to be hurt and people will be offended. I just wish I could somehow tell them, without telling them, that if they only knew the stuff American-corp/gov does to other countries directly and in-directly they would know what's really behind "Hate Americans because of their Freedom(TM)". But alas, any site that I get my news from will probably considered "Extremist Propaganda Against America" by the folks I'm thinking of.
  - jafaku 13y ago
    Would you mind sharing some of those news sites?
    - lemming 13y ago
      I've had a subscription to the Guardian for ages (on my Kindle, I don't live in the UK) because I think it's the best newspaper out there, period. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian#Ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian#Ownership for how it maintains independence (and why supporting it financially is a good thing).
Skalman 13y ago
Many on this thread are suspiciously skeptical of Snowden. I could easily see this as the Washington Post trying to portrait him as cooperating with China. I can't imagine China being interested, and I highly doubt Snowden would think they are. The only value to China would be PR.
- brown9-2 13y ago
  Why is our skepticism suspicious? A few of us have been suspicious all along. Regardless to what value he provides to China with this, his motives are confusing. Is he seeking to save American's civil liberties or attempting something else?
  - tdirect 13y ago
    What is confusing about his motivations? Nothing has been suspicious about the revelations he has made thus far or in his stated intent. The only thing slightly suspicious is that he chose Hong Kong, but there are many explanations for how it's a reasonable choice (The asylum application process is currently being reworked and he likely can't be extradited before that's complete, it's a major media capital from which he can engage with the story, it has one of the few governments that is in a position to stand up to the U.S. and that could cause major implications if anything fishy happened...)
  - mullingitover 13y ago
    Perhaps he's seeking to save America's civil liberties without becoming a martyr needlessly?
- apalmer 13y ago
  Its not suspiciously skeptical, its just downright skeptical. But I do take your point, reading the article in detail along with the original article it references, seems like he might just be spouting off generalities about the US hacking and then was specifically asked about Chinese hacking since the original paper is chinese and he said yup... The question I really dont know is if he is really really naive and easily lead into making these statements by the reporters or if this is carefully orchestrated propaganda... Either way now that dude is saying these kind of things he has probably 72 hours or less before he gets delta forced up.
taktix 13y ago
Americans have been so distracted with US propaganda on how bad China is with human rights, they didn't notice their own freedoms being pickpocketed. Now look at how bad it is. Snowden is a courageous, smart guy who is making a BIG point about the hypocrisy of the US government. He's making one of the biggest statements of the century, and he's put his life on the line to do it. Recognize!

93 points by zwieback 13y ago

Every network security professional in the US believes the US sponsors, coordinates, and executes online attacks against China (as China clearly does to the US). This is a little like a "revelation" from a sysadmin for a drone C&C site that the US does indeed engage in drone strikes.

tikums 13y ago
Emperor's New Clothes. By openly restating something that has been "obvious", "implicit" or "well known", we've been served with a wake-up call.

apalmer 13y ago

But it has been clear for a while that Snowden is not in it strictly for the heroism... the tone/slant and other circumstantial info to my mind seems to align him more with espionage than true whistleblowing.

ollysb 13y ago
I've yet to see an opportunity for much personal gain on his part, what's caused you to cast him in that light?
- Kylekramer 13y ago
  This is still early in the story, but you don't see how Snowden stands to gain by holding inside information about America's Chinese hacking whilst in a territory controlled by China?
  - SiVal 13y ago
    Obama's administration had just begun officially condemning China for their relentless cyberattacks in statements made by senior officials. Obama himself was a few days away from a meeting with the Chinese premier in which he was signaling that he was going to openly criticize China for these attacks. Suddenly, a guy who has had this information for several years decides that NOW is the moment he must step forward with his revelations. He runs off to China (yes, Hong Kong is China), and "confesses" that his agency has been cyberattacking China. How remarkably convenient this must be for China at this moment, and how remarkably coincidental that he chose China to run away to. Coincidences happen, of course, but I'm not ready to gush about Snowdon's patriotism just yet.
    - ollysb 13y ago
      If I was in Snowdon's position I'd be taking every measure possible to protect myself from America. If that is his game it sounds like a sensible strategy, he's certainly not going to be getting any support from his home country.
- apalmer 13y ago
  ummmm lets play devils advocate, how much would China pay Snowden for the design documents, specifications, etc for an advanced system for monitoring and extracting an entire nations online and phone habits? keep in mind china fairly recently got busted stealing of cybersitters net nanny software to power their national green dam project. How much would the propaganda value of China being able to shirk its label as human rights invasion of internet privacy by showing that the USA is doing the same thing be worth? China protecting freedom of expression online... Snowden is very clearly signalling that he has a lot more secrets, and would like to get some kind of special consideration from china. in particular he seems to be claiming he has a lot of info on US cyber attacks on China, which in no way are 'protecting the US constitution' and in everyway are good old fashion espionage. ... then again wonder if Snowden is going to be the justification for even stronger snooping once he turns out to be a spy.
  - tdirect 13y ago
    He has not at all signaled, so far, that he would like any special consideration from China. He has not claimed to have "a lot of info" on US cyber attacks on China. He has said he would let Hong Kong decide whether he deserves protection from extradition. He has said the U.S. is cyber-attacking China. This is important information for the U.S. public to know when the U.S. government is criticizing China for cyber attacks. How can people hold the executive branch accountable when they're basically being lied to? ("The Chinese are cyber-attacking us, and we only defend...") Is there a primary aggressor in the cyber war? It's an important question. Suggesting he is a spy for revealing very non-specific information that the Chinese government already knows but the American people do not is ridiculous.
betterunix 13y ago
Espionage is typically conducted in secret. Snowden publicly released the documents and publicly announced his role as the leaker.
- apalmer 13y ago
  I mean i don't know if he is a very naive dude who came up with his own (bad) way of trying to work his way into the chinese good graces... or if he is a very slick operative and this whole thing is part of a propaganda operation as he defects to China. All I can say is he stole all kinds of classified documents, revealed some to cause an uproar in the US and paint himself as a hero, immediately flew to the one other super power in the worlds sphere of influence and started advertising he needs help and has a whole lot more documents that would be of keen interest to said super power
  - tdirect 13y ago
    How is he advertising such a thing? He specifically said he carefully chose documents that would be in the public interest and not documents that would be a threat to national security.
  - polyfractal 13y ago
    OR he's just a whistleblower trying to do the right thing for the States.

brown9-2 13y ago

Isn't this sort of the entire purpose of an signals intelligence agency? China is a target of US hacking. The US is a target of Chinese hacking. And so on and so forth for any other country's names you can swap in or any other intelligence gathering mechanism you can replace "hacking" with. One part of this story that has always seemed baffling is his shock that espionage, the act of stealing secrets or convincing someone to betray their oaths and steal secrets for you, requires some less-than-moral activities. And by disclosing that he possesses documents that he says describe U.S. hacking against China, he appeared to be trying to win support from the Chinese government. This seems to be transitioning from leaking to let Americans know how their civil rights are being violated into something else.

krapp 13y ago
Even with all of this going on, affront to liberty that it is, I'd be more upset if we weren't trying to hack China. An up and coming communist superpower, and a potential military and technological rival? Of course we're trying to hack the bejesus out of them. Everything we accuse them of doing - penetrating our media, penetrating our infrastructure, whatever, we're trying to do. This is not even controversial, this is the part of their job they're supposed to be doing, 'owning other countries.'
- brown9-2 13y ago
  This isn't even that much of a reveal by Snowden considering 1) the Chinese would already know about this and 2) a lot of details about NSA's TAO group have already been published (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_nsa_s_ultra_secret_china_hacking_group http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_...). So now he is using the secrets he learned to buy favor from the Chinese government?
  - tdirect 13y ago
    If he did indeed reveal this, how is it "buying favor from the Chinese government"? It's hard to imagine the government of China doesn't already know about these attacks. The beneficiary of this information is the U.S. public, so they can actually have a real discussion about cyber warfare, rather than simply believing the government line of "China hacks us, and we only defend...". How can we have a real discussion about our role in the world if we're told only about foreign aggression and not our own?

josh2600 13y ago

This isn't news. When you look at Keith Alexander's profile, just what do you think "Operations" are? http://www.nsa.gov/about/leadership/bio_alexander.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/about/leadership/bio_alexander.shtml

apalmer 13y ago
This is absolutely true, but it doesnt seem to be in line with the 'whistleblower' image that has been projected so far, and more in line with plain espionage. It appears to my jaded eye that Snowden copied everything possible while in the NSA, revealed a certain amount to rile up the public opinion in his favor and to cover over the fact he was copying everything in sight. He seems to be positioning himself as a literal espionage agent right now, giving operational secrets or at least implying he is willing to reveal operational secrets for special treatment from china... and no doubt money. The tone of his statements seem to be like a chinese propaganda mouth peice right now... funny how things are never as simple as they look at first glance
- tdirect 13y ago
  > giving operational secrets or at least implying he is willing to reveal operational secrets for special treatment from china... and no doubt money Could you please offer citation?

peripetylabs 13y ago

Although this wasn't news to most people here, keep in mind that the US has always denied doing economic espionage, against China or anyone else. The Snowden leak also revealed that the largest target of US espionage in Europe is Germany -- I can't think of any reason for that other than economic espionage. This certainly raises questions.

tokenadult 13y ago

I should hope so. At a minimum, even in a time of peace between China and the United States, the United States should be aware of what online vulnerabilities China has, whether to advise China on how to reduce those during an alliance, or whether to make use of those during a conflict. (After all, it is plain enough that China looks at the issue as one such that it has to find out what vulnerabilities the United States government and private businesses have.) From the article: "Snowden’s claims could not be verified, and U.S. officials did not respond to immediate requests for comment."

Jd 13y ago

A bizarre play by Snowden, who seems to have gone to Hong Kong in order to be in the strange space that currently exists between the US and China right now, where despite the normal standard of extradition from HK to the US, there exists the possibility of a Chinese veto. Here, I think Snowden is primarily stalling for time, saying that if China helps his cause (i.e. not allowing him to be extradited) he might do something that helps China. I don't really know how I feel about this either ethically or as a strategy, but it certainly could play out to Snowden's personal advantage after a bit of time on the international stage. I'd imagine some pretty senior level guys will get involved, and they will decide what to do with Snowden. That said, regardless of his ultimate fate, this does seem like a legitimate and probably successful tactic for him to buy himself a bit more time in Hong Kong. The Chinese government will probably want to know what he knows, but they will presumably also have to wait for him to reveal what he is willing to over time. Keep in mind Snowden has already hinted he knows some pretty "dirty secrets" and given his crypto background, etc. it is possible he has some sort of other treasure trove of documents that he hasn't handed over to the reporters yet -- this is sort of an ugly and dangerous game, but I'm sure he knew that from the moment he set things in motion.

aswanson 13y ago
I'm not so certain he thought things through as far you give him credit for. He seems to be just playing it by ear; not the long-term consequence type thinker. How noble is it to give up state secrets from a country that monitors its citizens to a country that more heavily monitors its citizens, actively represses the flow of information into its borders, and allows only one political party. He's starting to look stupid and short-sighted if this is true.
- tdirect 13y ago
  I don't think he has given any information from one country to another. He has revealed to the American people that they are taking an offensive rather than merely defensive role in a hacking war with China. This is important for the American people to know--how can anyone come to a reasonable conclusion about the issue if they only hear the government line that China is hacking and the U.S. is just defending? China has also received this information, but it's ridiculous to believe they didn't already know there were hacking attempts.

tomjen3 13y ago

Hmm, it is one thing to leak secrets that may be relevant for the public at large. It is quite another to give secrets to your countries competitors.

tdirect 13y ago
That the U.S. may be the cyber aggressor is very important information for the American people. If this is the case, it's difficult to believe the government of China doesn't already know...

Kiro 13y ago

Not a big fan of this guy tbh.

tzs 13y ago

I am very puzzled: > And by disclosing that he possesses documents that he says describe U.S. hacking against China, he appeared to be trying to win support from the Chinese government. China is known to be active in hacking attempts against US government and US industrial targets. They would therefore be greatly interested in any inside information they could get about US defenses against such attempts. The NSA would likely have information on those defenses. I would expect, then, that China would be quite interested in getting their hands on any NSA employee with a high security clearance in order to question them about those defenses. Snowden is publicly known to be a person. He likely has information that would also help China with their own internal spying programs. And now, Snowden is letting China know that he's got even more valuable information of particular interest to them. Given this, WHY did he pick Honk Kong to flee to? If China wants that information (and it is hard to see how they could not want it), their best move is to kidnap him and blame it on foreign agents (hinting that they think the US took him--which many people would find quite believable) and make him turn over his information to them.

youngerdryas 13y ago
Even better he turns himself over to them in exchange for a Communist party position.
apalmer 13y ago
because its simpler to pay him instead of kidnapping him. he is a spy thats all there really is to it it seems
diminoten 13y ago
Because he's a traitor, that's why. And not your Bradley Manning, "fuzzy lines" kind of whistleblower.
- rdouble 13y ago
  He's only a traitor if the American public is now the enemy.
  - 13y ago

mpyne 13y ago

Breaking news from NSA leaker Snowden: "Water is wet, Cubs won't win the Series."

skwirl 13y ago

While the facts of the statement would not be surprising to anyone, making these kind of statements are not going to help Snowden as he is viewed in the United States. I don't view this at all as a noble leak. This particular leak seems to be blatantly self serving and he seems to be outright threatening to harm U.S. national security to keep the U.S. off his back and to keep in favor of the Chinese government.

joonix 13y ago

And his systems administrator position in Hawaii for a contractor gives him access to records of this hacking? If so, where are the documents? Seems he's trying to build a platform and turn into a pundit/commentator. A whistleblower should just hand over documents and attest to what he's seen personally from his/her inside position.

wissler 13y ago

"According to Snowden, the NSA has engaged in more than 61,000 hacking operations worldwide, including hundreds aimed at Chinese targets. Among the targets were universities, businesses and public officials." So a tiny fraction are aimed at China, and this is the headline that's chosen? Did Snowden himself specifically call out China or is it just the reporter doing that?

Kylekramer 13y ago
This is the article WaPo is taking its info from: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-sn... It is a HK paper, so maybe the local angle is being pushed. And it doesn't have direct quotes from him about Chinese hacking. Still, it is an odd thing to even bring up and provide documents regarding considering how much it would call his credibility into question. Especially with how much control he had over the interview.

tome 13y ago

Well, I supported Snowden till now. What was the point of saying this? Firstly, it's obvious. Secondly, it's not in the national interest of US citizens to have this openly talked about.

jstedfast 13y ago
if it was so obvious, why did it turn you against him? did your delicate sensibilities get hurt or something? I honestly don't understand how this could have change your opinion on him based on something you not only acknowledge is true, but also as "obvious".
- tome 13y ago
  Because it changes my impression of what he's in this game for. My first impression was that he wanted to make the US government look bad in the eyes of US citizens, so the citizens could fix the problem. Now my impression is that he wants to make the US look bad in terms of its foreign policy, which is something entirely different.
  - tdirect 13y ago
    I think this differs very little from the other revelations. This does make the government look bad in the eyes of US citizens--why are we crying foul at China when we are doing exactly the same thing, and may even be the more aggressive party? If we are conducting this sort of warfare, the citizenry needs to know. It's probably a better issue to face publicly than to let it slowly morph into a new cold war espionage situation with China.

skygazer 13y ago

My sympathy erodes as he diverges from whistle-blower to indiscriminate national secret revealer. He's now distracting from, and deminishing the impact of the primary story: the government massively trampling our personal privacy. Perhaps he's trying to raise support in Hong Kong, but he may well lose it in the US.

noiseapple 13y ago

Edward Snowden joined the communist?

quannabe 13y ago

File this under 'No shit'...

grecy 13y ago

While many in the tech community won't see this as news, I think it's important for the American people to realize what the government is doing to other countries on their behalf. For anyone that doesn't know what I'm talking about, I strongly suggest you spend some time in any of Honduras, Panama, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, etc. People in those countries don't "Hate Americans because of their Freedom(TM)", they dislike America for what it's done to their countries for decades. Americans need to know about this kind of action being taken by their government so they can have input on whether it should continue or not. EDIT: Yes, I meant "Kind of action" ... thanks.

Fishkins 13y ago
I've never been in any of those countries, but I totally agree with the sentiment. By the way, you meant "kind of action," right? Unless that was irony.
smtddr 13y ago
^ This right here is why I don't even bother debating some issues with some people. I just know feelings/pride is going to be hurt and people will be offended. I just wish I could somehow tell them, without telling them, that if they only knew the stuff American-corp/gov does to other countries directly and in-directly they would know what's really behind "Hate Americans because of their Freedom(TM)". But alas, any site that I get my news from will probably considered "Extremist Propaganda Against America" by the folks I'm thinking of.
- jafaku 13y ago
  Would you mind sharing some of those news sites?
  - lemming 13y ago
    I've had a subscription to the Guardian for ages (on my Kindle, I don't live in the UK) because I think it's the best newspaper out there, period. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian#Ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian#Ownership for how it maintains independence (and why supporting it financially is a good thing).

Skalman 13y ago

Many on this thread are suspiciously skeptical of Snowden. I could easily see this as the Washington Post trying to portrait him as cooperating with China. I can't imagine China being interested, and I highly doubt Snowden would think they are. The only value to China would be PR.

brown9-2 13y ago
Why is our skepticism suspicious? A few of us have been suspicious all along. Regardless to what value he provides to China with this, his motives are confusing. Is he seeking to save American's civil liberties or attempting something else?
- tdirect 13y ago
  What is confusing about his motivations? Nothing has been suspicious about the revelations he has made thus far or in his stated intent. The only thing slightly suspicious is that he chose Hong Kong, but there are many explanations for how it's a reasonable choice (The asylum application process is currently being reworked and he likely can't be extradited before that's complete, it's a major media capital from which he can engage with the story, it has one of the few governments that is in a position to stand up to the U.S. and that could cause major implications if anything fishy happened...)
- mullingitover 13y ago
  Perhaps he's seeking to save America's civil liberties without becoming a martyr needlessly?
apalmer 13y ago
Its not suspiciously skeptical, its just downright skeptical. But I do take your point, reading the article in detail along with the original article it references, seems like he might just be spouting off generalities about the US hacking and then was specifically asked about Chinese hacking since the original paper is chinese and he said yup... The question I really dont know is if he is really really naive and easily lead into making these statements by the reporters or if this is carefully orchestrated propaganda... Either way now that dude is saying these kind of things he has probably 72 hours or less before he gets delta forced up.

taktix 13y ago

Americans have been so distracted with US propaganda on how bad China is with human rights, they didn't notice their own freedoms being pickpocketed. Now look at how bad it is. Snowden is a courageous, smart guy who is making a BIG point about the hypocrisy of the US government. He's making one of the biggest statements of the century, and he's put his life on the line to do it. Recognize!