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If you haven't seen the video Moxie mentions in the opening couple paragraphs, "don't talk to the police," I HIGHLY recommend watching it. Not only is it infor

If you haven't seen the video Moxie mentions in the opening couple paragraphs, "don't talk to the police," I HIGHLY recommend watching it. Not only is it informative, it is fascinating and very well delivered. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

tptacek 13y ago
Strongest possible agree; this is a great video. Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
mtgx 13y ago
It surprises me that many people, and even officials say "let us know everything you say or do, if you have nothing to hide", when the very first thing the police tell you when they arrest you is: "Anything you say, can and will be used against you". And people are still not freaked out about having the government know everything they've ever said or done? I think the problem is most people just don't realize this or don't think about the type of abuses that this could create.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > And people are still not freaked out about having the government know everything they've ever said or done? The part you left out of the quote was "used against you, in a court of law". Even if NSA should find info on people, it won't be admissible in a court of law against U.S. citizens essentially by definition, so from the POV of a random guy on the street it's a question of whether the nerd sitting at the NSA console is worse than the nerd sitting at the GMail ops room console. FBI would probably be a bigger worry, but no one seems to care about them for years now.
  - briancaw2 13y ago
    Remember in Seven when Morgan Freeman is all like Hey Man we can't knock down this door we found out about this guy illegally and then Brad Pitt is all like Screw it and kicks down the door and they pay a homeless woman to say she saw someone suspicious...
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Yes. Remember how that was portrayed in the move Seven far before Prism was a gleam in any NSA manager's eye? Cops have been able to do that since we've had cops. That makes transparency, rules of evidence, honest judges, and good defense attorneys important but we've already had this problem forever now.
jjoonathan 13y ago
The lawyer only ever saw cases that got to the point of needing a lawyer. Police exercise discretion as part of their job and I have trouble believing that silence (and the suspicion it creates) always pays off. Example: the neighbors see/hear you having rough sex with your wife and report it as abuse. The police knock on the door, you have two options: A) Explain (better: let your wife explain) that the neighbors probably heard you playing around and promise to be more discreet in the future. The police agree that more discretion = better and leave. B) Wall of silence. The police take you in just to be sure. Your wife tries to testify in your favor at the trial but everyone thinks she's just making excuses for an actually abusive boyfriend (because that happens). Your life is ruined by the conviction, maybe her life is too. Even if you don't get convicted, rumors will spread and your time and money will be wasted on legal matters. Am I being naive or was the lawyer overstating his argument? Strategy A is strictly worse than B if the case goes to court, but that still means that B could be the better strategy before you've been arrested.
- IanDrake 13y ago
  > Your wife tries to testify in your favor at the trial... Why would she do that? The only way you've gotten this far is because she's pressing charges.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    The state presses criminal charges, not the "victim".
  - gyom 13y ago
    IANAL, but in some states there are certain legal mechanisms that prevent domestic violence victims to back off and drop their charges (as a "safeguard" against intimidation leading to dropped charges). I wouldn't be surprised if some states had laws that more or less forced the potential victim to go through the trial even if she intends on testifying in your favor. I dunno. Just sayin'.
  - jjoonathan 13y ago
    No, the AG is pressing charges, ostensibly on her behalf, because everyone thinks she was in denial about the abuse. Alternatively, even if everyone agrees she consented, consent isn't a legally recognized defense to all forms of battery and you also have to consider sodomy laws: in the hands of a conservative judge/jury, what you were doing actually was illegal, even though you were consenting adults and nobody got (permanently) hurt, which is the standard most "reasonable" people go by nowadays. IANAL and the little I know about the intersection of kinky sex and law comes from a single presentation I attended years ago during college. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain I have the broad strokes drawn correctly.

tptacek 13y ago

Strongest possible agree; this is a great video. Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

mtgx 13y ago

It surprises me that many people, and even officials say "let us know everything you say or do, if you have nothing to hide", when the very first thing the police tell you when they arrest you is: "Anything you say, can and will be used against you". And people are still not freaked out about having the government know everything they've ever said or done? I think the problem is most people just don't realize this or don't think about the type of abuses that this could create.

mpyne 13y ago
> And people are still not freaked out about having the government know everything they've ever said or done? The part you left out of the quote was "used against you, in a court of law". Even if NSA should find info on people, it won't be admissible in a court of law against U.S. citizens essentially by definition, so from the POV of a random guy on the street it's a question of whether the nerd sitting at the NSA console is worse than the nerd sitting at the GMail ops room console. FBI would probably be a bigger worry, but no one seems to care about them for years now.
- briancaw2 13y ago
  Remember in Seven when Morgan Freeman is all like Hey Man we can't knock down this door we found out about this guy illegally and then Brad Pitt is all like Screw it and kicks down the door and they pay a homeless woman to say she saw someone suspicious...
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Yes. Remember how that was portrayed in the move Seven far before Prism was a gleam in any NSA manager's eye? Cops have been able to do that since we've had cops. That makes transparency, rules of evidence, honest judges, and good defense attorneys important but we've already had this problem forever now.

jjoonathan 13y ago

The lawyer only ever saw cases that got to the point of needing a lawyer. Police exercise discretion as part of their job and I have trouble believing that silence (and the suspicion it creates) always pays off. Example: the neighbors see/hear you having rough sex with your wife and report it as abuse. The police knock on the door, you have two options: A) Explain (better: let your wife explain) that the neighbors probably heard you playing around and promise to be more discreet in the future. The police agree that more discretion = better and leave. B) Wall of silence. The police take you in just to be sure. Your wife tries to testify in your favor at the trial but everyone thinks she's just making excuses for an actually abusive boyfriend (because that happens). Your life is ruined by the conviction, maybe her life is too. Even if you don't get convicted, rumors will spread and your time and money will be wasted on legal matters. Am I being naive or was the lawyer overstating his argument? Strategy A is strictly worse than B if the case goes to court, but that still means that B could be the better strategy before you've been arrested.

IanDrake 13y ago
> Your wife tries to testify in your favor at the trial... Why would she do that? The only way you've gotten this far is because she's pressing charges.
- mpyne 13y ago
  The state presses criminal charges, not the "victim".
- gyom 13y ago
  IANAL, but in some states there are certain legal mechanisms that prevent domestic violence victims to back off and drop their charges (as a "safeguard" against intimidation leading to dropped charges). I wouldn't be surprised if some states had laws that more or less forced the potential victim to go through the trial even if she intends on testifying in your favor. I dunno. Just sayin'.
- jjoonathan 13y ago
  No, the AG is pressing charges, ostensibly on her behalf, because everyone thinks she was in denial about the abuse. Alternatively, even if everyone agrees she consented, consent isn't a legally recognized defense to all forms of battery and you also have to consider sodomy laws: in the hands of a conservative judge/jury, what you were doing actually was illegal, even though you were consenting adults and nobody got (permanently) hurt, which is the standard most "reasonable" people go by nowadays. IANAL and the little I know about the intersection of kinky sex and law comes from a single presentation I attended years ago during college. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain I have the broad strokes drawn correctly.