7 ms·

Retina Mac External display problem

96 points by sayhello 13y ago

singular 13y ago
Not experiencing this with a mid-2012 Mac Book Pro Retina hooked up to an external display via an HDMI/DVI adapter. I wonder if this is some strange prank designed to get people to look at a screenshot of https://optin.stopwatching.us/ https://optin.stopwatching.us/, esp. given the '1px reproduction' of this is entitled 'We are watching you!' If so, I really, really don't get it :-S
- sayhello 13y ago
  Not a troll. Actually, let me host another version of the page. The reason it's got the "We are watching you!" is because i noticed the problem while viewing https://optin.stopwatching.us/ https://optin.stopwatching.us/ Edit: hosted here: https://people.mozilla.com/~oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/ https://people.mozilla.com/~oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/
  - singular 13y ago
    Ah fair enough, that made me suspicious in particular as that title seemed unrelated to the bug :-) I wonder whether my HDMI -> DVI adapter is making a difference somehow?
octo_t 13y ago
I can't seem to reproduce, but I've got two monitors (VGA + HDMI)
- safwanc 13y ago
  Same here. MacBookPro10,1 with two monitors connected (VGA + HDMI) and I can't reproduce.
- cmsj 13y ago
  I find it most amusing that you'd buy the laptop with the best screen available and then connect it to a monitor with the worst available connection method (VGA) ;D
stordoff 13y ago
Unable to reproduce this on my first-gen rMBP 15" with an LG TV connected via HDMI. Will try my external displays (Dell/HDMI; LG/VGA) tomorrow.
zoop 13y ago
This works for me with my first gen 15" Retina. This also happened to me at https://optin.stopwatching.us/ https://optin.stopwatching.us/, and I assumed it was exploiting some kind of bug with fullscreen for an intentional effect. I am using an external 20" older generation Apple display.
- sayhello 13y ago
  It wasn't intentional. I'm not on the team working on stopwatching.us, but I had the issue and wanted to get to the bottom of this. If you've got the bandwidth, could you please post your monitor model and/or snap a video?
  - zoop 13y ago
    Apple Cinema Display ‪23-inch DVI‬ (1920 x 1200) connected through a DVI/DP converter. It doesn't happen when I open the image in photoshop.
kunai 13y ago
This must be exclusive to the Retina MacBook Pro, then, because my MacBook Air doesn't show the same symptoms.
- sayhello 13y ago
  So far, I've only been able to reproduce it on first-gen 15" Retina MacbookPro's
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    For what little it is worth, it doesn't repro on chromebook pixels.
keesj 13y ago
Can't reproduce. mid-2012 MBP Retina + Cinema Display 24"
freshyill 13y ago
I can't reproduce it using the latest update to the Retina 15" MBP and an iMac in target display mode, connected via Thunderbolt.
moraljto 13y ago
off-topic: how does he/she get those vertical tabs in Firefox in that screenshot? https://raw.github.com/oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/master/display_problem.png https://raw.github.com/oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/master/... (warning: that is the picture that apparently breaks certain displays)
- sayhello 13y ago
  That's Tree Style Tab, great for tab hoarders like me https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...
  - moraljto 13y ago
    awesome, thanks!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
faramarz 13y ago
No problems for me. Retina, 13-inch, Late 2012 HDMI Out
kogir 13y ago
Can't reproduce with MacBookPro10,1 + 2x Mini-DP->Dual-Link DVI + 2x Dell 3007WFP on 10.8.4
mbell 13y ago
Just a guess: The patterns in the examples seem to be horizontal, meaning the raw (pre 'cable encoding', usually 8b/10b) bit pattern of the display output would be repetitive . It wouldn't be out of the question that a slightly improperly electrically balanced or terminated output could cause signal integrity issues, including ringing (voltage exceeds spec on rising / falling edges) which could trigger safeguard circuitry in a display (shut it off).
- sayhello 13y ago
  I don't have any electrical knowledge. care to elaborate? Is that a problem with the cable, terminals on the devices, the mini-displayport dongle or either? The problem also only seems to occur on Retina Macbook Pro's
  - mbell 13y ago
    If my guess is correct, it would be a problem in the design of the output transceiver circuit on the RMP's motherboard, assuming the cable and receiver in the display are built to spec. Could be an IC issue, could be the impedance control of the connector, could be the impedance control of the traces on the circuit board, could be poorly chosen passives, could be interference from nearby circuits, etc. I wish I could give you a better answer but high speed signal integrity is one of the most obtuse and most black art aspects of electronics design, there's a fair amount of non-intuitive physics going on, e.g. signals going down a wire don't just go, they 'ricochet' off impedance differences. It's far too large a topic to treat in a HN comment and its whole system encompassing so 'what it could be' is a large set. These types of things are not uncommon in hardware development, especially with high speed signaling. The interactivity of such systems can be high and hard to predict fully at times. EDIT: Simply put - display outputs scan top to bottom, left to right. The fact that the pattern that triggers the issue appears to be horizontal means it would occur in the raw bit stream of the output in a periodic way. That means there is some low order frequency in the system caused by this pattern (maybe it repeats every 500khz or something like that). If there is something in the electronics of the output of the RMBp that resonates at that frequency (easier than you think), then it could possibly cause the described failure.
fearlessleader 13y ago
Can't Reproduce on my 15" retina with neither a dell nor a vizio tv over hdmi.
dlazerka 13y ago
It's funny to see how many Hacker News writers use Mac, the most closed hardware+OS, most anti-hackish. How about renaming HN to stand for Hipster News?
- lazugod 13y ago
  A Mac is the only computer on which you can legally develop for all major operating systems, including mobile. How is that closed?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - jrockway 13y ago
    Apple puts artificial restrictions on what tools you can use to write iPhone apps, and Macs are that allowed tool, so OS X isn't closed? That is literally the dumbest argument I've ever read on HN.
- jawngee 13y ago
  takes photo Posts like these are why HN can't have nice things anymore.
brisance 13y ago
How long before it takes effect? I don't see anything on my Retina MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt Display. Model Name: MacBook Pro Model Identifier: MacBookPro10,1 Processor Name: Intel Core i7 Processor Speed: 2.6 GHz Number of Processors: 1 Total Number of Cores: 4 L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB L3 Cache: 6 MB Memory: 16 GB Boot ROM Version: MBP101.00EE.B02 SMC Version (system): 2.3f35 Thunderbolt Display: Vendor Name: Apple Inc. Device Name: Thunderbolt Display Vendor ID: 0x1 Device ID: 0x8002 Device Revision: 0x1 UID: 0x0001000100508120 Route String: 3 Firmware Version: 22.2 Port: Status: Device connected Link Status: 0x2 Port Micro Firmware Version: 0.0.21 Cable Firmware Version: 0.1.18 Cable Serial Number: C4M2263005QDNWFAX Port: Status: No device connected Link Status: 0x7 Port Micro Firmware Version: 0.0.21
- cmsj 13y ago
  I also can't reproduce it with the Thunderbolt Display. Are the original reproducers of this all using minidisplayport adapters? Or are some able to reproduce using the native HDMI port?
haxxorfreak 13y ago
I can't reproduce the issue on a first-gen MacBookPro10,1 2.3GHz connected to an Apple Cinema Display 27" (over mini-DP) Apple recently swapped my LG LCD panel to a new Samsung one for ghosting but I'm in clamshell mode.
psteinweber 13y ago
can reproduce with all examples incl. stopwatching.us with mid 2012 rmbp and LG 23EN43 which is connected via thunderbolt to DVI adapter. display shuts off immediately. Was quite confused when opening stopwatching.us yesterday, thanks for pointing it our here :)

96 points by sayhello 13y ago

Not experiencing this with a mid-2012 Mac Book Pro Retina hooked up to an external display via an HDMI/DVI adapter. I wonder if this is some strange prank designed to get people to look at a screenshot of https://optin.stopwatching.us/ https://optin.stopwatching.us/, esp. given the '1px reproduction' of this is entitled 'We are watching you!' If so, I really, really don't get it :-S

sayhello 13y ago
Not a troll. Actually, let me host another version of the page. The reason it's got the "We are watching you!" is because i noticed the problem while viewing https://optin.stopwatching.us/ https://optin.stopwatching.us/ Edit: hosted here: https://people.mozilla.com/~oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/ https://people.mozilla.com/~oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/
- singular 13y ago
  Ah fair enough, that made me suspicious in particular as that title seemed unrelated to the bug :-) I wonder whether my HDMI -> DVI adapter is making a difference somehow?

octo_t 13y ago

I can't seem to reproduce, but I've got two monitors (VGA + HDMI)

safwanc 13y ago
Same here. MacBookPro10,1 with two monitors connected (VGA + HDMI) and I can't reproduce.
cmsj 13y ago
I find it most amusing that you'd buy the laptop with the best screen available and then connect it to a monitor with the worst available connection method (VGA) ;D

stordoff 13y ago

Unable to reproduce this on my first-gen rMBP 15" with an LG TV connected via HDMI. Will try my external displays (Dell/HDMI; LG/VGA) tomorrow.

zoop 13y ago

This works for me with my first gen 15" Retina. This also happened to me at https://optin.stopwatching.us/ https://optin.stopwatching.us/, and I assumed it was exploiting some kind of bug with fullscreen for an intentional effect. I am using an external 20" older generation Apple display.

sayhello 13y ago
It wasn't intentional. I'm not on the team working on stopwatching.us, but I had the issue and wanted to get to the bottom of this. If you've got the bandwidth, could you please post your monitor model and/or snap a video?
- zoop 13y ago
  Apple Cinema Display ‪23-inch DVI‬ (1920 x 1200) connected through a DVI/DP converter. It doesn't happen when I open the image in photoshop.

kunai 13y ago

This must be exclusive to the Retina MacBook Pro, then, because my MacBook Air doesn't show the same symptoms.

sayhello 13y ago
So far, I've only been able to reproduce it on first-gen 15" Retina MacbookPro's
- jlgreco 13y ago
  For what little it is worth, it doesn't repro on chromebook pixels.

keesj 13y ago

Can't reproduce. mid-2012 MBP Retina + Cinema Display 24"

freshyill 13y ago

I can't reproduce it using the latest update to the Retina 15" MBP and an iMac in target display mode, connected via Thunderbolt.

moraljto 13y ago

off-topic: how does he/she get those vertical tabs in Firefox in that screenshot? https://raw.github.com/oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/master/display_problem.png https://raw.github.com/oyiptong/retinadisplayproblem/master/... (warning: that is the picture that apparently breaks certain displays)

sayhello 13y ago
That's Tree Style Tab, great for tab hoarders like me https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...
- moraljto 13y ago
  awesome, thanks!
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

faramarz 13y ago

No problems for me. Retina, 13-inch, Late 2012 HDMI Out

kogir 13y ago

Can't reproduce with MacBookPro10,1 + 2x Mini-DP->Dual-Link DVI + 2x Dell 3007WFP on 10.8.4

mbell 13y ago

Just a guess: The patterns in the examples seem to be horizontal, meaning the raw (pre 'cable encoding', usually 8b/10b) bit pattern of the display output would be repetitive . It wouldn't be out of the question that a slightly improperly electrically balanced or terminated output could cause signal integrity issues, including ringing (voltage exceeds spec on rising / falling edges) which could trigger safeguard circuitry in a display (shut it off).

sayhello 13y ago
I don't have any electrical knowledge. care to elaborate? Is that a problem with the cable, terminals on the devices, the mini-displayport dongle or either? The problem also only seems to occur on Retina Macbook Pro's
- mbell 13y ago
  If my guess is correct, it would be a problem in the design of the output transceiver circuit on the RMP's motherboard, assuming the cable and receiver in the display are built to spec. Could be an IC issue, could be the impedance control of the connector, could be the impedance control of the traces on the circuit board, could be poorly chosen passives, could be interference from nearby circuits, etc. I wish I could give you a better answer but high speed signal integrity is one of the most obtuse and most black art aspects of electronics design, there's a fair amount of non-intuitive physics going on, e.g. signals going down a wire don't just go, they 'ricochet' off impedance differences. It's far too large a topic to treat in a HN comment and its whole system encompassing so 'what it could be' is a large set. These types of things are not uncommon in hardware development, especially with high speed signaling. The interactivity of such systems can be high and hard to predict fully at times. EDIT: Simply put - display outputs scan top to bottom, left to right. The fact that the pattern that triggers the issue appears to be horizontal means it would occur in the raw bit stream of the output in a periodic way. That means there is some low order frequency in the system caused by this pattern (maybe it repeats every 500khz or something like that). If there is something in the electronics of the output of the RMBp that resonates at that frequency (easier than you think), then it could possibly cause the described failure.

fearlessleader 13y ago

Can't Reproduce on my 15" retina with neither a dell nor a vizio tv over hdmi.

dlazerka 13y ago

It's funny to see how many Hacker News writers use Mac, the most closed hardware+OS, most anti-hackish. How about renaming HN to stand for Hipster News?

lazugod 13y ago
A Mac is the only computer on which you can legally develop for all major operating systems, including mobile. How is that closed?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- jrockway 13y ago
  Apple puts artificial restrictions on what tools you can use to write iPhone apps, and Macs are that allowed tool, so OS X isn't closed? That is literally the dumbest argument I've ever read on HN.
jawngee 13y ago
takes photo Posts like these are why HN can't have nice things anymore.

brisance 13y ago

How long before it takes effect? I don't see anything on my Retina MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt Display. Model Name: MacBook Pro Model Identifier: MacBookPro10,1 Processor Name: Intel Core i7 Processor Speed: 2.6 GHz Number of Processors: 1 Total Number of Cores: 4 L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB L3 Cache: 6 MB Memory: 16 GB Boot ROM Version: MBP101.00EE.B02 SMC Version (system): 2.3f35 Thunderbolt Display: Vendor Name: Apple Inc. Device Name: Thunderbolt Display Vendor ID: 0x1 Device ID: 0x8002 Device Revision: 0x1 UID: 0x0001000100508120 Route String: 3 Firmware Version: 22.2 Port: Status: Device connected Link Status: 0x2 Port Micro Firmware Version: 0.0.21 Cable Firmware Version: 0.1.18 Cable Serial Number: C4M2263005QDNWFAX Port: Status: No device connected Link Status: 0x7 Port Micro Firmware Version: 0.0.21

cmsj 13y ago
I also can't reproduce it with the Thunderbolt Display. Are the original reproducers of this all using minidisplayport adapters? Or are some able to reproduce using the native HDMI port?

haxxorfreak 13y ago

I can't reproduce the issue on a first-gen MacBookPro10,1 2.3GHz connected to an Apple Cinema Display 27" (over mini-DP) Apple recently swapped my LG LCD panel to a new Samsung one for ghosting but I'm in clamshell mode.

psteinweber 13y ago

can reproduce with all examples incl. stopwatching.us with mid 2012 rmbp and LG 23EN43 which is connected via thunderbolt to DVI adapter. display shuts off immediately. Was quite confused when opening stopwatching.us yesterday, thanks for pointing it our here :)