3 ms·

"making claims that are not directly backed up by the material" Which makes those claims inconclusive regardless of Snowdens character.

tptacek 13y ago
I guess if you're going to stipulate that nobody believes anything Snowden says and that we're all sticking to the leaked Powerpoint slides, sure.
- mbreese 13y ago
  Which in and of itself is tricky because a slidedeck without the presentation itself is hard to interpret. I don't know how much of the slidedeck is historical vs aspirational. And who made the slides in the first place - did they have a better picture of the program than Snowden?
  - tptacek 13y ago
    If I'm being asked who I believe more, the person who authored a slide deck selling some kind of surveillance tool to the NSA, or Google's chief architect, their general counsel, and Larry Page, I'm going to go with the Googlers.
    - mbreese 13y ago
      Exactly. Google at least has some room for transparency in all of this. Not to mention an economic incentive to get an accurate picture of this out in the public. Google has motivation to bring clarity to their role in all of this. The NSA would rather keep everything secret. I'd believe Google more too...
    - subsystem 13y ago
      "PRISM Collection Manager", "April 2013", "ORCON", "You should use both" and the classification date in relation to the date slide doesn't suggest sales material to me. Note that the slides have different degrees of redaction across sources. These links should together cover what's available on PRISM. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-n... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-prism-server-collection-facebook-google http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-prism-server...
      - tptacek 13y ago
        You know what: stipulate that this is an internal presentation by a manager at NSA. My opinion is unchanged about who's more credible.
        subsystem 13y ago
        A collection manager is someone who works with collection management and not necessarily a manager, as in boss.
    - thwest 13y ago
      On what basis? Personality?
XorNot 13y ago
Except where - particularly around Hacker News - people have been taking everything Snowden has said and just running with it as though it's obviously true, regardless of technical or legal possibility. The material that's actually been disclosed is, what, 3 powerpoint slides? Almost everything else is simply wild speculation.
- subsystem 13y ago
  As far as I know it's 5 slides on PRISM, 4 slides and screenshots on BOUNDLESSINFORMANT and a Verizon court order from FISC.

tptacek 13y ago

I guess if you're going to stipulate that nobody believes anything Snowden says and that we're all sticking to the leaked Powerpoint slides, sure.

mbreese 13y ago
Which in and of itself is tricky because a slidedeck without the presentation itself is hard to interpret. I don't know how much of the slidedeck is historical vs aspirational. And who made the slides in the first place - did they have a better picture of the program than Snowden?
- tptacek 13y ago
  If I'm being asked who I believe more, the person who authored a slide deck selling some kind of surveillance tool to the NSA, or Google's chief architect, their general counsel, and Larry Page, I'm going to go with the Googlers.
  - mbreese 13y ago
    Exactly. Google at least has some room for transparency in all of this. Not to mention an economic incentive to get an accurate picture of this out in the public. Google has motivation to bring clarity to their role in all of this. The NSA would rather keep everything secret. I'd believe Google more too...
  - subsystem 13y ago
    "PRISM Collection Manager", "April 2013", "ORCON", "You should use both" and the classification date in relation to the date slide doesn't suggest sales material to me. Note that the slides have different degrees of redaction across sources. These links should together cover what's available on PRISM. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-n... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-prism-server-collection-facebook-google http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-prism-server...
    - tptacek 13y ago
      You know what: stipulate that this is an internal presentation by a manager at NSA. My opinion is unchanged about who's more credible.
      - subsystem 13y ago
        A collection manager is someone who works with collection management and not necessarily a manager, as in boss.
  - thwest 13y ago
    On what basis? Personality?

XorNot 13y ago

Except where - particularly around Hacker News - people have been taking everything Snowden has said and just running with it as though it's obviously true, regardless of technical or legal possibility. The material that's actually been disclosed is, what, 3 powerpoint slides? Almost everything else is simply wild speculation.

subsystem 13y ago
As far as I know it's 5 slides on PRISM, 4 slides and screenshots on BOUNDLESSINFORMANT and a Verizon court order from FISC.