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Civil Liberties Groups Are Suing the NSA

280 points by sethbannon 13y ago

jacoblyles 13y ago
Now what will you do when the Supreme Court finds the NSA's programs to be unconstitutional and they keep doing it anyway?
- unclebucknasty 13y ago
  At that point, it becomes overtly criminal. If, in that event, the law isn't upheld (i.e. via appropriate punishment), then we will be witnessing the complete and unquestionable dismantling of our nation.
  - jacoblyles 13y ago
    I'll just leave this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5862676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5862676
ck2 13y ago
Great to hear. This is a "country of laws" as every lawmaker likes to say, so sue this program out of existence. Within the USA this is a clear violation of the right to free-association (which should also work against drone tracking). The Atlantic is really churning out great articles on this, another good one from yesterday: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/the-obama-surveillance-revelations-are-pushing-liberals-over-the-edge/276755/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/the-obam...
- blahedo 13y ago
  > The Atlantic is really churning out great articles on this, another good one from yesterday I agree; and anyone else out there who agrees should consider getting a subscription. Information may want to be free, but content production isn't! :) I subscribed last summer, renewed last month, and haven't regretted it.
tjaerv 13y ago
> "All the way to the legal limit." Too bad the NSA doesn't observe legal limits.
confluence 13y ago
> Civil Liberties Groups Are Ganging Up on NSA That's a very odd turn of phrase. The NSA is a multi-billion dollar behemoth whereas civil liberty groups are just social gadflys.
- bad_user 13y ago
  Sometimes money and being a privileged government institution is not enough as long as free speech is still allowed. What these groups have is an audience. It's not a big audience, but it's important to recognize that a lot of people do follow EFF, Reddit and the others in the list of 86 [1] - and because of this the effects can multiply exponentially, because this trial will get news coverage. You see, government agencies and politicians that violate our rights do so hoping either (a) that people don't find out about it or (b) that people forget about it in a week. But if organizations and companies keep the issue relevant and in the news, then it persists and things can quickly escalate, just as it happened with SOPA or ACTA. And then you'll also see the online giants protesting it, because first of all, it's bad for business. And then you'll also see street protests, even from other countries. And then you'll finally see the real shit-storm that no amount of money can quickly wash away (although such issues tend to reappear, because those in power tried shoving too many things down our throats at once, who knows, maybe people will grow a social conscience after all). [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/86-civil-liberties-groups-and-internet-companies-demand-end-nsa-spying https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/86-civil-liberties-gro...
- hnriot 13y ago
  Yeah, I'm sure the NSA are trembling, if they gave two shits about laws or civil liberties we would be here, so I'm sure this isn't going to do a thing.
  - mjolk 13y ago
    Nothing they were doing is illegal, so I'm not sure how you can make a claim that they don't give a shit about laws.
    - 13y ago
mtgx 13y ago
I almost wish they didn't do this so soon. Because now the administration probably won't declassify anything else for fear of getting sued over it. I think they should've waited a little more for more leaks to come out of the Guardian and then the public outrage to force them to declassify more. And then gang up on them in full force. I'm also awaiting for the PRISM lawsuit, which seems a lot more important than the phone records one, to me.
beat 13y ago
tl;dr The ACLU is leading a particularly good suit. As a Verizon customer, their phone records were scanned as well. And as a legal firm handling cases where even the existence of a call to a lawyer is privileged information (ie govt whistleblowers), the system is clearly unconstitutional.
sethbannon 13y ago
My favorite bit: "We cannot mention the letter at the heart of the EFF's demand without noting that it comprises perhaps the most diverse collection of groups in the modern history of American politics."
grappler 13y ago
If you are passionate about the right to bear arms, because you view it as a vital protection against a tyrannical government, I'm curious how you feel about surveillance/collection of all your phone calls, movements, and internet activity. Why is there massive support in this country for the right to own & use guns, but not for the right to communicate privately and not be tracked and monitored? Do the same people who view banning guns as a threat not view massive surveillance as a threat?
- jacoblyles 13y ago
  If we were writing a Constitution nowadays, I would certainly support explicit protections for the right to privacy in all forms of communication and the right to use encryption technology. The principles of the Constitution are very good but the language is too outdated to withstand the concerted effort of cynical men seeking to expand their power. Of course, I also support the right to bear arms. We need new protections from our government. Now is not the time to be wolves, not little lost sheep in search of a protector.
- tokipin 13y ago
  "guns" are just part of the guns-gods-gays social trifecta. it's reactionary language joyfully kindled by gun manufacturers. the "second amendment", etc is an appendix for the sake of politics
  - willurd 13y ago
    Oh gods of HN, grant me thine Downvote Dagger that I may smite this post.
- ollysb 13y ago
  I really have trouble believing that the real reason people want a gun is so they can fend off the government. To be honest when you consider the opposition(the American military!) I don't know how anyone can say it with a straight face.
  - gridmaths 13y ago
ck2 13y ago
This is the first time I've seen an article posted on HN with the original title to start with - and then the title is changed by a mod? Is it opposite day?

280 points by sethbannon 13y ago

Now what will you do when the Supreme Court finds the NSA's programs to be unconstitutional and they keep doing it anyway?

unclebucknasty 13y ago
At that point, it becomes overtly criminal. If, in that event, the law isn't upheld (i.e. via appropriate punishment), then we will be witnessing the complete and unquestionable dismantling of our nation.
- jacoblyles 13y ago
  I'll just leave this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5862676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5862676

ck2 13y ago

Great to hear. This is a "country of laws" as every lawmaker likes to say, so sue this program out of existence. Within the USA this is a clear violation of the right to free-association (which should also work against drone tracking). The Atlantic is really churning out great articles on this, another good one from yesterday: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/the-obama-surveillance-revelations-are-pushing-liberals-over-the-edge/276755/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/the-obam...

blahedo 13y ago
> The Atlantic is really churning out great articles on this, another good one from yesterday I agree; and anyone else out there who agrees should consider getting a subscription. Information may want to be free, but content production isn't! :) I subscribed last summer, renewed last month, and haven't regretted it.

tjaerv 13y ago

> "All the way to the legal limit." Too bad the NSA doesn't observe legal limits.

confluence 13y ago

> Civil Liberties Groups Are Ganging Up on NSA That's a very odd turn of phrase. The NSA is a multi-billion dollar behemoth whereas civil liberty groups are just social gadflys.

bad_user 13y ago
Sometimes money and being a privileged government institution is not enough as long as free speech is still allowed. What these groups have is an audience. It's not a big audience, but it's important to recognize that a lot of people do follow EFF, Reddit and the others in the list of 86 [1] - and because of this the effects can multiply exponentially, because this trial will get news coverage. You see, government agencies and politicians that violate our rights do so hoping either (a) that people don't find out about it or (b) that people forget about it in a week. But if organizations and companies keep the issue relevant and in the news, then it persists and things can quickly escalate, just as it happened with SOPA or ACTA. And then you'll also see the online giants protesting it, because first of all, it's bad for business. And then you'll also see street protests, even from other countries. And then you'll finally see the real shit-storm that no amount of money can quickly wash away (although such issues tend to reappear, because those in power tried shoving too many things down our throats at once, who knows, maybe people will grow a social conscience after all). [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/86-civil-liberties-groups-and-internet-companies-demand-end-nsa-spying https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/86-civil-liberties-gro...
hnriot 13y ago
Yeah, I'm sure the NSA are trembling, if they gave two shits about laws or civil liberties we would be here, so I'm sure this isn't going to do a thing.
- mjolk 13y ago
  Nothing they were doing is illegal, so I'm not sure how you can make a claim that they don't give a shit about laws.
  - 13y ago

mtgx 13y ago

I almost wish they didn't do this so soon. Because now the administration probably won't declassify anything else for fear of getting sued over it. I think they should've waited a little more for more leaks to come out of the Guardian and then the public outrage to force them to declassify more. And then gang up on them in full force. I'm also awaiting for the PRISM lawsuit, which seems a lot more important than the phone records one, to me.

beat 13y ago

tl;dr The ACLU is leading a particularly good suit. As a Verizon customer, their phone records were scanned as well. And as a legal firm handling cases where even the existence of a call to a lawyer is privileged information (ie govt whistleblowers), the system is clearly unconstitutional.

sethbannon 13y ago

My favorite bit: "We cannot mention the letter at the heart of the EFF's demand without noting that it comprises perhaps the most diverse collection of groups in the modern history of American politics."

grappler 13y ago

If you are passionate about the right to bear arms, because you view it as a vital protection against a tyrannical government, I'm curious how you feel about surveillance/collection of all your phone calls, movements, and internet activity. Why is there massive support in this country for the right to own & use guns, but not for the right to communicate privately and not be tracked and monitored? Do the same people who view banning guns as a threat not view massive surveillance as a threat?

jacoblyles 13y ago
If we were writing a Constitution nowadays, I would certainly support explicit protections for the right to privacy in all forms of communication and the right to use encryption technology. The principles of the Constitution are very good but the language is too outdated to withstand the concerted effort of cynical men seeking to expand their power. Of course, I also support the right to bear arms. We need new protections from our government. Now is not the time to be wolves, not little lost sheep in search of a protector.
tokipin 13y ago
"guns" are just part of the guns-gods-gays social trifecta. it's reactionary language joyfully kindled by gun manufacturers. the "second amendment", etc is an appendix for the sake of politics
- willurd 13y ago
  Oh gods of HN, grant me thine Downvote Dagger that I may smite this post.
ollysb 13y ago
I really have trouble believing that the real reason people want a gun is so they can fend off the government. To be honest when you consider the opposition(the American military!) I don't know how anyone can say it with a straight face.
- gridmaths 13y ago

ck2 13y ago

This is the first time I've seen an article posted on HN with the original title to start with - and then the title is changed by a mod? Is it opposite day?