6 ms·

This is a false equivalence. Just the fact that the US government feels compelled to hide a program like PRISM is a strong indication that there is a big differ

This is a false equivalence. Just the fact that the US government feels compelled to hide a program like PRISM is a strong indication that there is a big difference between the Russian government and the US government (and certainly the Soviet government). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...

JanezStupar 13y ago
There are better and worse slave masters. But slave master is a slave master still.
- pekk 13y ago
  If you are working at will for pay, you are not being enslaved. Get a grip.
  - npongratz 13y ago
    True only if chattel slavery were the only kind of slavery. The ruling masters treat those who work "at will for pay" like livestock when the masters demand taxes, threatening violence upon those who withhold the protection money. The livestock are being milked with every paycheck. We definitely do not live in a system of chattel slavery, but that's only because chattel slavery is so much less efficient (for the masters) than farming those who are willing to repeat the mantra that we "are not being enslaved."
    - jessedhillon 13y ago
      You know, when you guys speak in literal terms of "chattel slavery" and "masters" it becomes very hard to take any point you're making seriously. Get some perspective, or go full Godwin and compare everything to Hitler and the Holocaust.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        >You know, when you guys speak in literal terms of "chattel slavery" and "masters" it becomes very hard to take any point you're making seriously. Very hard for the sheep, you mean.
      - aidenn0 13y ago
        Did npongratz ninja-edit or did you and the other reply not actually read the comment? The post you are replying to specifically says that it's not talking about "chattel slavery" when it refers to the current system as slavery.
        npongratz 13y ago
        No ninja-edits from me.
    - cinquemb 13y ago
      Some people need directives from their friendly public institutions as to what slavery is and what can be construed as such. Some people would also be surprised to know that some colonists referred to themselves as slaves[0]… [0]: http://youtu.be/3EiSymRrKI4?t=9m22s http://youtu.be/3EiSymRrKI4?t=9m22s
    - dylangs1030 13y ago
      "Chattel slavery"...I'm sorry, but what are you on about? This comparison doesn't reflect the current state of affairs in the United States. Yeah, the NSA did some shitty things that circumnavigated loopholes in the Constitution. But you still don't realize how good you have it. Being in a Western country like the United States is spectacularly better than living conditions on many other entire continents, and sometimes many countries on others. I agree we should fight the NSA on this. No doubt about this. But you're not convincing everyone of your point by comparing journalists and citizens to "chattel slaves"...come on now. Journalists are still afford a lot of protections, and incidents like this leak in the United States are still outliers. The very fact that this leak is an outrage, that we are not desensitized to this news, demonstrates the state of our society. We are afraid of it devolving, but it is presently many tiers above your implied quality of life. There is no slavery. There is virtually no indentured slavery, named or in practice. We still have a variety of liberties the KGB never expected themselves to have, let alone fought for. We are not anything like chattel slavery. It weakens your argument to try to argue otherwise.
      - zero_intp 13y ago
        US Commercial Prisons
        angusangus 13y ago
        Indeed. See eg. http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/18/prison-small-business-ent-manage-cx_mf_0818prisonlabor.html http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/18/prison-small-business-ent-m... and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/prison-labor_n_2272036.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/prison-labor_n_2272... Money quote: "Oddo also said that workers were provided enough water, but the prisoners didn't sip it slowly enough." Also for a sense of scope http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/07/what-do-prisoners-make-victorias-secret http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/07/what-do-prisoner... including this irrelevant but salacious detail: 'In 1997, a California prison put two men in solitary for telling journalists they were ordered to replace "Made in Honduras" labels on garments with "Made in the USA."'
      - npongratz 13y ago
  - njharman 13y ago
    Unless basic human needs are free (health, housing, food & water), no one is working "at will".
    - maratd 13y ago
      Communist much?
      - simonh 13y ago
        I can't see how. Having visited several communist counties, and being married to someone that grew up in one, the previous comment doesn't resemble any of them in the slightest.
        maratd 13y ago
        To each according to his need, from each according to his ability. That's communism and that's what the parent was talking about. Now, the countries you visited are probably quite a bit off from the above even though they call themselves communist, but the above most certain is communism. Speaking of visiting, I lived in one for a very long time, does that make me more qualified than you to speak on the subject? If you're going to stand for something, at the very least identify it properly.
    - Houshalter 13y ago
      Well then your definition of slavery includes pretty much every human being throughout history. Freedom doesn't mean getting stuff for free.
- dylangs1030 13y ago
  What? Where are you pulling this from? The only form of arguably existing slavery in the entire United States is the lack of social mobility exacerbated by a lack of education in lower income classes, which becomes both a self-fulfilling prophecy and a cycle. Other than that - and I note slavery would be a passionate, emphatic term for that, not anything close to a literal one - there is no slavery and there are no slave masters in the United States. I'm not singling you out, because others are doing this, but it vastly weakens your point to make statements like that. Journalists are allowed to pursue stories and leads aggressively and practice freedom of speech.
  - gohrt 13y ago
    Well, and prisons, where felons go. And most Americans could be convicted of a felony.
  - larubbio 13y ago
    While this is off topic from the NSA story, and the article I'm linking to is from 2009, the conditions for tomato pickers in Florida could be described as slavery with slave masters in the United States. I don't believe things have gotten substantially better for them. http://boingboing.net/2009/02/26/slavery-among-florid.html http://boingboing.net/2009/02/26/slavery-among-florid.html
  - x__ 13y ago
    I think it was an analogy.
  - curlyquote 13y ago
    Although this is off topic, I'd argue that there are indeed literal slave masters in the United States today, and they are the private prison owners that profit off convict laborers that are forced to work and earn orders of magnitude less wages than minimum wage.

JanezStupar 13y ago

There are better and worse slave masters. But slave master is a slave master still.

pekk 13y ago
If you are working at will for pay, you are not being enslaved. Get a grip.
- npongratz 13y ago
  True only if chattel slavery were the only kind of slavery. The ruling masters treat those who work "at will for pay" like livestock when the masters demand taxes, threatening violence upon those who withhold the protection money. The livestock are being milked with every paycheck. We definitely do not live in a system of chattel slavery, but that's only because chattel slavery is so much less efficient (for the masters) than farming those who are willing to repeat the mantra that we "are not being enslaved."
  - jessedhillon 13y ago
    You know, when you guys speak in literal terms of "chattel slavery" and "masters" it becomes very hard to take any point you're making seriously. Get some perspective, or go full Godwin and compare everything to Hitler and the Holocaust.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >You know, when you guys speak in literal terms of "chattel slavery" and "masters" it becomes very hard to take any point you're making seriously. Very hard for the sheep, you mean.
    - aidenn0 13y ago
      Did npongratz ninja-edit or did you and the other reply not actually read the comment? The post you are replying to specifically says that it's not talking about "chattel slavery" when it refers to the current system as slavery.
      - npongratz 13y ago
        No ninja-edits from me.
  - cinquemb 13y ago
    Some people need directives from their friendly public institutions as to what slavery is and what can be construed as such. Some people would also be surprised to know that some colonists referred to themselves as slaves[0]… [0]: http://youtu.be/3EiSymRrKI4?t=9m22s http://youtu.be/3EiSymRrKI4?t=9m22s
  - dylangs1030 13y ago
    "Chattel slavery"...I'm sorry, but what are you on about? This comparison doesn't reflect the current state of affairs in the United States. Yeah, the NSA did some shitty things that circumnavigated loopholes in the Constitution. But you still don't realize how good you have it. Being in a Western country like the United States is spectacularly better than living conditions on many other entire continents, and sometimes many countries on others. I agree we should fight the NSA on this. No doubt about this. But you're not convincing everyone of your point by comparing journalists and citizens to "chattel slaves"...come on now. Journalists are still afford a lot of protections, and incidents like this leak in the United States are still outliers. The very fact that this leak is an outrage, that we are not desensitized to this news, demonstrates the state of our society. We are afraid of it devolving, but it is presently many tiers above your implied quality of life. There is no slavery. There is virtually no indentured slavery, named or in practice. We still have a variety of liberties the KGB never expected themselves to have, let alone fought for. We are not anything like chattel slavery. It weakens your argument to try to argue otherwise.
    - zero_intp 13y ago
      US Commercial Prisons
      - angusangus 13y ago
        Indeed. See eg. http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/18/prison-small-business-ent-manage-cx_mf_0818prisonlabor.html http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/18/prison-small-business-ent-m... and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/prison-labor_n_2272036.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/prison-labor_n_2272... Money quote: "Oddo also said that workers were provided enough water, but the prisoners didn't sip it slowly enough." Also for a sense of scope http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/07/what-do-prisoners-make-victorias-secret http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/07/what-do-prisoner... including this irrelevant but salacious detail: 'In 1997, a California prison put two men in solitary for telling journalists they were ordered to replace "Made in Honduras" labels on garments with "Made in the USA."'
    - npongratz 13y ago
- njharman 13y ago
  Unless basic human needs are free (health, housing, food & water), no one is working "at will".
  - maratd 13y ago
    Communist much?
    - simonh 13y ago
      I can't see how. Having visited several communist counties, and being married to someone that grew up in one, the previous comment doesn't resemble any of them in the slightest.
      - maratd 13y ago
        To each according to his need, from each according to his ability. That's communism and that's what the parent was talking about. Now, the countries you visited are probably quite a bit off from the above even though they call themselves communist, but the above most certain is communism. Speaking of visiting, I lived in one for a very long time, does that make me more qualified than you to speak on the subject? If you're going to stand for something, at the very least identify it properly.
  - Houshalter 13y ago
    Well then your definition of slavery includes pretty much every human being throughout history. Freedom doesn't mean getting stuff for free.
dylangs1030 13y ago
What? Where are you pulling this from? The only form of arguably existing slavery in the entire United States is the lack of social mobility exacerbated by a lack of education in lower income classes, which becomes both a self-fulfilling prophecy and a cycle. Other than that - and I note slavery would be a passionate, emphatic term for that, not anything close to a literal one - there is no slavery and there are no slave masters in the United States. I'm not singling you out, because others are doing this, but it vastly weakens your point to make statements like that. Journalists are allowed to pursue stories and leads aggressively and practice freedom of speech.
- gohrt 13y ago
  Well, and prisons, where felons go. And most Americans could be convicted of a felony.
- larubbio 13y ago
  While this is off topic from the NSA story, and the article I'm linking to is from 2009, the conditions for tomato pickers in Florida could be described as slavery with slave masters in the United States. I don't believe things have gotten substantially better for them. http://boingboing.net/2009/02/26/slavery-among-florid.html http://boingboing.net/2009/02/26/slavery-among-florid.html
- x__ 13y ago
  I think it was an analogy.
- curlyquote 13y ago
  Although this is off topic, I'd argue that there are indeed literal slave masters in the United States today, and they are the private prison owners that profit off convict laborers that are forced to work and earn orders of magnitude less wages than minimum wage.