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"But I suspect the NSA doesn't know how many guns you own. That alone is somehow seen as a violation of your rights" Have you purchased a firearm in the US fro

"But I suspect the NSA doesn't know how many guns you own. That alone is somehow seen as a violation of your rights" Have you purchased a firearm in the US from a licensed dealer recently? There's paper/digital record of most firearm purchase in most cases, with a few exceptions. There's a cursory background check ran too. (In the case of most US citizens the government doesn't care about small arms. Most are used for sporting, hunting or deterrence.)

thebooktocome 13y ago
You can purchase firearms for cash from many dealers (at gun shows) without either a background check or a paper trail.
- xradionut 13y ago
  This is one of the exceptions I mentioned. Also known as the "gun show loophole".
  - chiph 13y ago
    Not true. If they are a dealer, then paperwork is required. If they are a private individual (not in the business of selling firearms) then yes. But that's no different than buying a used deer rifle from your neighbor.
- jboggan 13y ago
  Not true. If the purchase is from an actual dealer with a Federal Firearms License then a 4473 (ATF form) must be filled out and an accompanying background check will be made. If the purchase is between two non-dealers then there is no requirement in many states for a background check or paperwork, so long as both are residents of the same state the transaction occurs in. However, all new guns are (since 1968) purchased from a licensed dealer, so there is always the beginning of a paper trail. How far that goes before it gets muddled in private sales is another matter.
  - fywacro 13y ago
    I believe it should be noted that federal law requires an FFL for anybody engaged in a "primary business" of selling guns. There's no bright line, here. People who regularly sell guns (at gun shows, or otherwise) but don't hold FFLs are playing with fire, if the ATF decides to take an interest in them.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > However, all new guns are (since 1968) purchased from a licensed dealer, so there is always the beginning of a paper trail. My understanding is that there is technically an exception to this where you can manufacture your own firearms so long as you stay under the yearly limit and do not manufacture them with the intent of distributing them. Once you have done so, you can then distribute them as a private citizen. That reads weird because the legality of distributing it depends on if you can assert that distribution was not your intent when you made it. This means this is probably not a very practical exception, as it potentially involves you arguing something rather nebulous in court.
jeremyjh 13y ago
The dealer maintains their own record but those are not handed over to the government and it is not possible to do lookups by a person's name, only by serial number. So police can trace ownership history of a specific weapon, by going from dealer to dealer - until it has entered the private market - but they cannot get a list of everyone that owns a weapon.
fywacro 13y ago
I'm not so sure that most US firearm purchases are recorded. In many US states, direct private gun sales are perfectly legal. For instance, a Pennsylvania resident can directly sell (most) guns to another PA resident. They don't need to run background checks, keep records, or submit forms to the government. As long as the buyer doesn't know that the seller is a prohibited person (convicted/indicted felon, etc), it's kosher. Because these sales aren't documented or reported, it's harder to count them. There are estimates, but I can't find anything that seems reliable. I did find an interesting article that discusses this issue at length, though: * http://www.policymic.com/articles/24070/gun-control-policy-universal-background-checks-aren-t-the-cure-all-people-think-they-are http://www.policymic.com/articles/24070/gun-control-policy-u... Anecdotally, I know dozens of people who've collectively purchased many, many guns through private sales. Also, take a peek at Armslist.com, GunBroker.com, GunAuction.com, GunsAmerica.com, and similar sites.
- kerrmudgeon 13y ago
  I just wanted to clarify: private sales are person-to-person and cannot include any sort of shipment. Online sales such as all the sites you listed are required by Federal law to only ship to a licensed Federal Firearms License holder who in turn may only transfer to customers after a NICS check. So, online sales are as cumbersome as in-store purchases. Anything with a NICS check or credit card purchase is potentially trackable. Also, with a gun registry [proposed in various places], sufficiently smart data mining, and fast processing, it may be possible to detect an ammunition purchase [via credit card] in a caliber in which the buyer supposedly doesn't have a registered firearm.

thebooktocome 13y ago

You can purchase firearms for cash from many dealers (at gun shows) without either a background check or a paper trail.

xradionut 13y ago
This is one of the exceptions I mentioned. Also known as the "gun show loophole".
- chiph 13y ago
  Not true. If they are a dealer, then paperwork is required. If they are a private individual (not in the business of selling firearms) then yes. But that's no different than buying a used deer rifle from your neighbor.
jboggan 13y ago
Not true. If the purchase is from an actual dealer with a Federal Firearms License then a 4473 (ATF form) must be filled out and an accompanying background check will be made. If the purchase is between two non-dealers then there is no requirement in many states for a background check or paperwork, so long as both are residents of the same state the transaction occurs in. However, all new guns are (since 1968) purchased from a licensed dealer, so there is always the beginning of a paper trail. How far that goes before it gets muddled in private sales is another matter.
- fywacro 13y ago
  I believe it should be noted that federal law requires an FFL for anybody engaged in a "primary business" of selling guns. There's no bright line, here. People who regularly sell guns (at gun shows, or otherwise) but don't hold FFLs are playing with fire, if the ATF decides to take an interest in them.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > However, all new guns are (since 1968) purchased from a licensed dealer, so there is always the beginning of a paper trail. My understanding is that there is technically an exception to this where you can manufacture your own firearms so long as you stay under the yearly limit and do not manufacture them with the intent of distributing them. Once you have done so, you can then distribute them as a private citizen. That reads weird because the legality of distributing it depends on if you can assert that distribution was not your intent when you made it. This means this is probably not a very practical exception, as it potentially involves you arguing something rather nebulous in court.

jeremyjh 13y ago

The dealer maintains their own record but those are not handed over to the government and it is not possible to do lookups by a person's name, only by serial number. So police can trace ownership history of a specific weapon, by going from dealer to dealer - until it has entered the private market - but they cannot get a list of everyone that owns a weapon.

fywacro 13y ago

I'm not so sure that most US firearm purchases are recorded. In many US states, direct private gun sales are perfectly legal. For instance, a Pennsylvania resident can directly sell (most) guns to another PA resident. They don't need to run background checks, keep records, or submit forms to the government. As long as the buyer doesn't know that the seller is a prohibited person (convicted/indicted felon, etc), it's kosher. Because these sales aren't documented or reported, it's harder to count them. There are estimates, but I can't find anything that seems reliable. I did find an interesting article that discusses this issue at length, though: * http://www.policymic.com/articles/24070/gun-control-policy-universal-background-checks-aren-t-the-cure-all-people-think-they-are http://www.policymic.com/articles/24070/gun-control-policy-u... Anecdotally, I know dozens of people who've collectively purchased many, many guns through private sales. Also, take a peek at Armslist.com, GunBroker.com, GunAuction.com, GunsAmerica.com, and similar sites.

kerrmudgeon 13y ago
I just wanted to clarify: private sales are person-to-person and cannot include any sort of shipment. Online sales such as all the sites you listed are required by Federal law to only ship to a licensed Federal Firearms License holder who in turn may only transfer to customers after a NICS check. So, online sales are as cumbersome as in-store purchases. Anything with a NICS check or credit card purchase is potentially trackable. Also, with a gun registry [proposed in various places], sufficiently smart data mining, and fast processing, it may be possible to detect an ammunition purchase [via credit card] in a caliber in which the buyer supposedly doesn't have a registered firearm.