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I have no problem with this. China has shown it is willing and able to attack the us and its government is an extant threat to human freedom. The u.s. isn't per

I have no problem with this. China has shown it is willing and able to attack the us and its government is an extant threat to human freedom. The u.s. isn't perfect but China is far more repressive comparably.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
joyeuse6701 13y ago
repressive in some ways, yes speak out against the gov't and you're screwed, corruption is also significant. On the flip side, China's infrastructure sucks so much that you can get away with a lot that you can't in the U.S. . First thought was illegal parking, open defecation and prostitution. I'm not putting any judgements, I'm just saying in practice it is easier in China to do the aforementioned than I find it is to do the same in the U.S.!
- tptacek 13y ago
  Until you piss off the wrong local constable and he sentences you to 1 year in a "reeducation through labor" camp without the benefit of a trial except for an appeals process deliberately designed to take longer than the 1 year maximum sentence.
contingencies 13y ago
That is a loaded comparison and has no place as the top comment here. Having lived in both countries, I can tell you you're less likely to be harassed by a self-important policeman in China than in the US. Likewise, you're less likely to be in debt, in jail, or homeless.
- aswanson 13y ago
  Your anecdotal tenure in both countries has no impact on the facts. If you don't believe me, set up an access point in Beijing that bypasses the great firewall and while you're at it, set up a site criticizing the one-party process and live in china for a year thereafter. While doing so, google the poverty level and homeless statistics for both countries, and how both countries define it. Pay particular attention to the options afforded a Chinese farmer vs. shelter options for a u.s. homeless person in any urban district.
  - contingencies 13y ago
    Err, I've spent 8 years living in China, all around the country. I think you have the incorrect perception that the state is somehow looking after the individual in China - that's not the case. Modern mainland Chinese society concentrates having the family support the individual (though the state nominally assists for aged persons, etc.). In many places, there are also free facilities for old people such as parks, garden-compounds and clubs with boules facilities. I'm not sure where your view of Chinese farmers comes from. All the ones I've met (probably hundreds now) have no problems eating heartily, usually have a big flat screen TV, often a computer, and always a cell phone. Their houses are often larger than many western apartments, though less luxurious and tend to have a higher density of residents than we're used to. That doesn't mean they're uncomfortable though. As for personal debt and jail... you go look those up and then come back and tell me I'm wrong.
    - aswanson 13y ago
      Again, I invite you to start up the ISP and website, and to remove your anecdotal experience from observational data: http://seeingredinchina.com/2011/04/27/how-poor-are-chinese-farmers http://seeingredinchina.com/2011/04/27/how-poor-are-chinese-.... Debt is a function of belief in economic mobility; if I dont think your situation will be better in terms of income in the future vs today, I am far less likely to extend capital to you for risk. Im more likely to buy bonds. So the debt situation can be viewed as a reflection of capital markets betting against things getting better in China.
      - contingencies 13y ago
        Err, I've run numerous websites in China before. The only functional difference with running them in the west is there's a generally unenforced request to register with the government so they know who to call if they have any issues (very civilized!). As for ISP... get out of the 90s! The state took China from zero internet to most of the global internet in ~10 years - of course they own the infrastructure. As for the list of incomes .. those look out of date but I have personally spent much time in rural Yunnan and some in rural Guizhou and Sichuan and can tell you the people are generally fine and have great quality of life with loads of interesting festivals, scads of TV channels, cheap education and such. The biggest issues tend to be if people need rare medical treatments or try to migrate to the cities with minimal education... the first often ends in death, the second in a return to the country with whatever cash they can stash. Sort of like those young Amish that leave their communities to experience the world for a bit then tend to go back home. Remember, these are people who are not traditionally part of the market economy in any significantly state-backed-currency-involved sense. So what you see as 'zero wealth' through modern economic glasses (described by George Soros, universally acknowledged as an authority on that mire, as "wrong" and "entirely based upon a false analogy with Newtonian physics"), is a lie. The people have food, clothes, housing, community, education, even internet. They don't need to sell much excess crop for fiat money.
malandrew 13y ago
Having lived in both I see it this way: (1) In China, if you do something the government doesn't like, they'll jail you for that. The reason for jailing is transparent, regardless of whether that reason is just and respects human rights. (2) In the US, they will more or less follow due process, bending it as far as they can without getting a case thrown out for technical reasons. If they can't charge you with a crime for those actions you performed that they are unhappy about, they will find other charges that are more likely to stick no matter how unrelated. They will then use those charges to coerce you into a plea bargain. When you have this much information on people, you can be jailed whenever someone doesn't like your actions, because they can find something that will stick or at least ruin your reputation and/or finances. tl;dr; China has a perverse system. The US has a system that can be perverted. “Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime.” - Lavrentiy Beria, head of Joseph Stalin's secret police

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

joyeuse6701 13y ago

repressive in some ways, yes speak out against the gov't and you're screwed, corruption is also significant. On the flip side, China's infrastructure sucks so much that you can get away with a lot that you can't in the U.S. . First thought was illegal parking, open defecation and prostitution. I'm not putting any judgements, I'm just saying in practice it is easier in China to do the aforementioned than I find it is to do the same in the U.S.!

tptacek 13y ago
Until you piss off the wrong local constable and he sentences you to 1 year in a "reeducation through labor" camp without the benefit of a trial except for an appeals process deliberately designed to take longer than the 1 year maximum sentence.

contingencies 13y ago

That is a loaded comparison and has no place as the top comment here. Having lived in both countries, I can tell you you're less likely to be harassed by a self-important policeman in China than in the US. Likewise, you're less likely to be in debt, in jail, or homeless.

aswanson 13y ago
Your anecdotal tenure in both countries has no impact on the facts. If you don't believe me, set up an access point in Beijing that bypasses the great firewall and while you're at it, set up a site criticizing the one-party process and live in china for a year thereafter. While doing so, google the poverty level and homeless statistics for both countries, and how both countries define it. Pay particular attention to the options afforded a Chinese farmer vs. shelter options for a u.s. homeless person in any urban district.
- contingencies 13y ago
  Err, I've spent 8 years living in China, all around the country. I think you have the incorrect perception that the state is somehow looking after the individual in China - that's not the case. Modern mainland Chinese society concentrates having the family support the individual (though the state nominally assists for aged persons, etc.). In many places, there are also free facilities for old people such as parks, garden-compounds and clubs with boules facilities. I'm not sure where your view of Chinese farmers comes from. All the ones I've met (probably hundreds now) have no problems eating heartily, usually have a big flat screen TV, often a computer, and always a cell phone. Their houses are often larger than many western apartments, though less luxurious and tend to have a higher density of residents than we're used to. That doesn't mean they're uncomfortable though. As for personal debt and jail... you go look those up and then come back and tell me I'm wrong.
  - aswanson 13y ago
    Again, I invite you to start up the ISP and website, and to remove your anecdotal experience from observational data: http://seeingredinchina.com/2011/04/27/how-poor-are-chinese-farmers http://seeingredinchina.com/2011/04/27/how-poor-are-chinese-.... Debt is a function of belief in economic mobility; if I dont think your situation will be better in terms of income in the future vs today, I am far less likely to extend capital to you for risk. Im more likely to buy bonds. So the debt situation can be viewed as a reflection of capital markets betting against things getting better in China.
    - contingencies 13y ago
      Err, I've run numerous websites in China before. The only functional difference with running them in the west is there's a generally unenforced request to register with the government so they know who to call if they have any issues (very civilized!). As for ISP... get out of the 90s! The state took China from zero internet to most of the global internet in ~10 years - of course they own the infrastructure. As for the list of incomes .. those look out of date but I have personally spent much time in rural Yunnan and some in rural Guizhou and Sichuan and can tell you the people are generally fine and have great quality of life with loads of interesting festivals, scads of TV channels, cheap education and such. The biggest issues tend to be if people need rare medical treatments or try to migrate to the cities with minimal education... the first often ends in death, the second in a return to the country with whatever cash they can stash. Sort of like those young Amish that leave their communities to experience the world for a bit then tend to go back home. Remember, these are people who are not traditionally part of the market economy in any significantly state-backed-currency-involved sense. So what you see as 'zero wealth' through modern economic glasses (described by George Soros, universally acknowledged as an authority on that mire, as "wrong" and "entirely based upon a false analogy with Newtonian physics"), is a lie. The people have food, clothes, housing, community, education, even internet. They don't need to sell much excess crop for fiat money.

malandrew 13y ago

Having lived in both I see it this way: (1) In China, if you do something the government doesn't like, they'll jail you for that. The reason for jailing is transparent, regardless of whether that reason is just and respects human rights. (2) In the US, they will more or less follow due process, bending it as far as they can without getting a case thrown out for technical reasons. If they can't charge you with a crime for those actions you performed that they are unhappy about, they will find other charges that are more likely to stick no matter how unrelated. They will then use those charges to coerce you into a plea bargain. When you have this much information on people, you can be jailed whenever someone doesn't like your actions, because they can find something that will stick or at least ruin your reputation and/or finances. tl;dr; China has a perverse system. The US has a system that can be perverted. “Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime.” - Lavrentiy Beria, head of Joseph Stalin's secret police