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>> To say "Israel has apartheid" really cheapens the struggle of Black South Africans. Is this something a Black South African who suffered under apartheid and
by thwest 13y ago
>> To say "Israel has apartheid" really cheapens the struggle of Black South Africans.
Is this something a Black South African who suffered under apartheid and is intimately familiar with the current occupied Palestine told you, or are you the Black South African yourself?
- devcpp 13y agoI'll answer for him. Neither, I read about the apartheid from reliable sources and I know the situation but also read about statistics to make sure I'm not being unfair to either side. But what about the people who say "Israel has apartheid"? Did you ask how they can claim that? Or do you just assume that they are/have met South Africans who lived under the Apartheid?
- carlob 13y agoI didn't say 'Israel has apartheid'. I said that some Israeli commenters have compared the situation to apartheid. I used the verb border to be specific. There is a whole wikipedia page on the argument [1] if you want to know more about it. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analog...
- devcpp 13y agoSorry, I supposed that gadders quoted you accurately due to the quotes around "Israel has apartheid". I apologize. I'll edit my reply to maintain the legitimacy of the question.
- thwest 13y agoThese are different kinds of statements that require different kinds of knowledge. Israel clearly has two categories of citizens within its borders defined by tribal distinctions (race/religion). Whether this is formally 'apartheid' is an arguement worth having, since we can look at the UN definition and Israel's actions and have a meaningful discussion from an external perspective. Comparing the subjectivities of the lives lived under the two regimes necessitates experiential knowledge that is most likely lacking in this audience. I don't find oppression olympics arguments to be fruitful. The moral calculus of today's actions does not depend on the price paid in South Africa, The Congo, The American South, or in Revolutionary China.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- Peaker 13y ago"within its borders" is correct or incorrect depending on whether you consider the West Bank inside Israeli borders.
- gadders 13y agoNo it's something that comparing, say, not having the right to vote (in South Africa) vs having Palestinian supreme court judges (Israel). I'm guessing that during apartheid, South Africa didn't have black Supreme Courth judges.
- thwest 13y agoIt might be useful to compare the political structures, sure. "Cheapens the struggle of" is not a statement about political structures, it is a statement about personal experiences. I don't think it is fruitful to reduce the experiential quality of living in an oppressive regime to some calculus of cheapness, wherein Having Supreme Court Judges counts as +$10.
- gadders 13y agoCheapens not in a monetary sense, but in a moral one. I think the experiences of Black South Africans were a lot worse than those experienced by Palestinians and Arabs within Israel. I think if people redefine "apartheid" downwards to cover any regime that people don't like then it becomes a meaningless term.
- jbooth 13y agoApartheid has a definition (differing sets of rights depending on your ethnicity), and Israel just barely skirts it by dint of the West Bank being technically a temporarily occupied territory. If you posit that the West Bank is effectively annexed and that the Israeli government has no plans to ever quit it, then technically the West Bank is governed by an apartheid system.
- thwest 13y agoI don't care what you think the preferable apartheid to live under would be, much like I don't care if you'd rather be a Roman or an American slave. The morality of the political structures at play here does not depend on winning a "shittiest conditions" competition. I disagree that we are redefining apartheid.
- mullingitover 13y agoYou know who said Israel has apartheid? The Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa[1]. [1] http://www.hsrc.ac.za/en/media-briefs/democracy-goverance-and-service-delivery/report-israel-practicing-apartheid-in-palestinian-territories http://www.hsrc.ac.za/en/media-briefs/democracy-goverance-an...
- Samuel_Michon 13y agoIf the only tool you have is a hammer, it’s tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.
- mullingitover 13y agoAnd if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.