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> "that think they possess the truth and are right about everything" All those things I listed are well-documented. For the sake of keeping my post short I did

> "that think they possess the truth and are right about everything" All those things I listed are well-documented. For the sake of keeping my post short I didn't post links to the appropriate Wikipedia articles nor to mainstream US online newspapers that reported the events.

kyrra 13y ago
powertower did not imply that anything you originally listed as incorrect, but saying that you are looking at a very small part of what the US does. I'm pretty sure we could look at any person or government, find all their past flaws/mistakes and only list this to show that the person is 'evil'. But without looking at the bigger picture of everything they do, you aren't being fair with your judgement of that person/country.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  I don't think the idea was to color the US government as "evil" - but rather that the criticism that these are "exceptions" is off base. In all but one of the examples cited, this was acknowledged, deliberate policy of the government at many levels. Extraordinary rendition, imprisonment without charge, torture, drone strikes, all were known, approved of, and carried out with the assistance of many levels of the central government. The only example there that can be reasonably cited as an aberration of the norm is the judge taking payoffs for heavy sentences - that's an example of one piece of the machine going rogue. Sure, the US has done good during all this time as well, but the atrocities cited are not "exceptions", they are a core part of the American government of the past decade.
  - reader5000 13y ago
    US doesn't have the resources to give every one of the hundreds of thousands of individuals interested in blowing up a chunk of Americans a full blown 8 month trial, 3 hots and a cot, and loving handjobs twice per week. As in all things in life there's a tradeoff between "justice" and "security". Luckily for you and most of the people in this thread, you get to benefit from the actions of people who have to make that call, while looking down on them from your moral high horse in your comfortably AC'ed parents' basement.
    - lindenr 13y ago
      And who told you there are "hundreds of thousands" of people who want to blow up Americans? But actually, even (very generously) at 100,000 brand-new prisoners for the USG to deal with it would certainly cope just fine (an increase of 4% on the current prison population). And imagine all the money which would be saved from surveillance programs if all the terrorists were dealt with!
    - ryusage 13y ago
      The richest country in the world, by far, and you think we lack the resources to give fair trials and humane prison conditions to the people we accuse of crimes? You do know that innocent people get arrested sometimes, right? > As in all things in life there's a tradeoff between "justice" and "security" Some amount of tradeoff between freedom and security, I will grant you. But I can't see how strong security precludes us from actually bothering to properly investigate, try, and incarcerate people. That's just laziness, if not pure malice.
    - popee 13y ago
      But you do have resources to start wars in name of XYZ, bomb other countries because of ZYX, etc? You really should know there are objective reasons why people from other countries can't stand US government/politics during last decade. If you don't understand what i'm talking about, that same politics is going after it's own citizens now, so you will find out soon.
- bilbo0s 13y ago
  We're never fair in our judgements... just ask any black guy in a court room. Weighing information is the nature of judgement. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. Sometimes we don't care what we don't know. Sometimes we don't care even though we know. It's the nature of the human machine. This is the principal reason for the old adage "Life's Unfair". It's just that we usually won't notice that until it's unfair to us. We should fix these negative things as they come up instead of doing the gymnastics it takes to justify them. You never want to get caught fighting a rear guard action against the truth.
jebblue 13y ago
>> All those things I listed are well-documented. So are many of the positive events powertower mentioned. Either way, you don't even live in your own native country let alone the US, you don't have a dog in this hunt. Oh, and if you think Spain is a good example of a decent place to live; look up those bull runs. Barbaric.
- freehunter 13y ago
  I think that's a little harsh. We don't know the reasons why he's not living in NZ or why he's in Spain. Calling that into question and using that as an excuse to dismiss his claims is just wrong. I'm not agreeing with him and I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't think the way you're attacking him is entirely appropriate.
  - jebblue 13y ago
    He doesn't live in his own country (his fact not mine) and the one he chose (his fact not mine) has a violent history of torturing innocent animals that continues today. Yet he saw fit to criticize the US.
    - freehunter 13y ago
      Just because something is a fact doesn't mean it's relevant.

kyrra 13y ago

powertower did not imply that anything you originally listed as incorrect, but saying that you are looking at a very small part of what the US does. I'm pretty sure we could look at any person or government, find all their past flaws/mistakes and only list this to show that the person is 'evil'. But without looking at the bigger picture of everything they do, you aren't being fair with your judgement of that person/country.

potatolicious 13y ago
I don't think the idea was to color the US government as "evil" - but rather that the criticism that these are "exceptions" is off base. In all but one of the examples cited, this was acknowledged, deliberate policy of the government at many levels. Extraordinary rendition, imprisonment without charge, torture, drone strikes, all were known, approved of, and carried out with the assistance of many levels of the central government. The only example there that can be reasonably cited as an aberration of the norm is the judge taking payoffs for heavy sentences - that's an example of one piece of the machine going rogue. Sure, the US has done good during all this time as well, but the atrocities cited are not "exceptions", they are a core part of the American government of the past decade.
- reader5000 13y ago
  US doesn't have the resources to give every one of the hundreds of thousands of individuals interested in blowing up a chunk of Americans a full blown 8 month trial, 3 hots and a cot, and loving handjobs twice per week. As in all things in life there's a tradeoff between "justice" and "security". Luckily for you and most of the people in this thread, you get to benefit from the actions of people who have to make that call, while looking down on them from your moral high horse in your comfortably AC'ed parents' basement.
  - lindenr 13y ago
    And who told you there are "hundreds of thousands" of people who want to blow up Americans? But actually, even (very generously) at 100,000 brand-new prisoners for the USG to deal with it would certainly cope just fine (an increase of 4% on the current prison population). And imagine all the money which would be saved from surveillance programs if all the terrorists were dealt with!
  - ryusage 13y ago
    The richest country in the world, by far, and you think we lack the resources to give fair trials and humane prison conditions to the people we accuse of crimes? You do know that innocent people get arrested sometimes, right? > As in all things in life there's a tradeoff between "justice" and "security" Some amount of tradeoff between freedom and security, I will grant you. But I can't see how strong security precludes us from actually bothering to properly investigate, try, and incarcerate people. That's just laziness, if not pure malice.
  - popee 13y ago
    But you do have resources to start wars in name of XYZ, bomb other countries because of ZYX, etc? You really should know there are objective reasons why people from other countries can't stand US government/politics during last decade. If you don't understand what i'm talking about, that same politics is going after it's own citizens now, so you will find out soon.
bilbo0s 13y ago
We're never fair in our judgements... just ask any black guy in a court room. Weighing information is the nature of judgement. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. Sometimes we don't care what we don't know. Sometimes we don't care even though we know. It's the nature of the human machine. This is the principal reason for the old adage "Life's Unfair". It's just that we usually won't notice that until it's unfair to us. We should fix these negative things as they come up instead of doing the gymnastics it takes to justify them. You never want to get caught fighting a rear guard action against the truth.

jebblue 13y ago

>> All those things I listed are well-documented. So are many of the positive events powertower mentioned. Either way, you don't even live in your own native country let alone the US, you don't have a dog in this hunt. Oh, and if you think Spain is a good example of a decent place to live; look up those bull runs. Barbaric.

freehunter 13y ago
I think that's a little harsh. We don't know the reasons why he's not living in NZ or why he's in Spain. Calling that into question and using that as an excuse to dismiss his claims is just wrong. I'm not agreeing with him and I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't think the way you're attacking him is entirely appropriate.
- jebblue 13y ago
  He doesn't live in his own country (his fact not mine) and the one he chose (his fact not mine) has a violent history of torturing innocent animals that continues today. Yet he saw fit to criticize the US.
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Just because something is a fact doesn't mean it's relevant.