5 ms·

You certainly do not speak for everyone outside the U.S. who has asked themselves the question: "Can I name a U.S. reporter who has disappeared or been murdered

You certainly do not speak for everyone outside the U.S. who has asked themselves the question: "Can I name a U.S. reporter who has disappeared or been murdered for producing material critical of the government?" or "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?"

belorn 13y ago
> "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?" No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from.
- rayiner 13y ago
  This is not true. Even US citizens capptured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban were transferred out of gitmo.
  - epsylon 13y ago
    But non-US citizens can liberally have their basic human rights denied. 12 years after 9/11. That's the land of the free for you. (Looking at how Bradley Manning was treated even shows that US citizens aren't treated much better. Being denied a lawyer and confined to solitary cells for months is not much different from torture.)
    - DannoHung 13y ago
      Manning was a member of the Army. You give up a significant number of rights and freedoms as a US citizen when you become a member of the armed forces. Which is not to say that it is right, but that it is legal.
      - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        At this point, American law is completely corrupt. Who gives a damn about it? What they've done to Bradley Manning isn't right, at all.
        jvictor118 13y ago
        Bradley Manning was a member of the Armed Forces who released classified information to the public. What planet are you living on that his prosecution is unwarranted?
        eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        What planning are you living on where physical and psychological torture is a warranted response to breaking military law?
        lhc- 13y ago
        Prosecution would be warranted. Indefinite detainment and torture is never warranted, especially for a US citizen.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        And also, Manning wasn't denied a lawyer, even in his first confinement facility. I remember this vividly because Manning's own lawyer was the one who admitted that Manning had joked about killing himself before being placed on prevention-of-suicide status...
  - asynchronous13 13y ago
    Except for Yasser Hamdi, it took them a few months before they realized he was a u.s. citizen.
    - rgbrenner 13y ago
      And when they found out he was a US citizen (about 6 months after capture), he was transferred to military jails in Virginia and South Carolina. He was in the system for a total of 3 years, and then in exchange for renouncing his US citizenship and agreeing to travel restrictions, etc, he was released and deported to Saudi Arabia where he grew up. Note the phrasing, he wasn't 'transferred' to Saudi Arabia, he was released, and given a plane ticket home. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Esam_Hamdi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Esam_Hamdi
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Hamdi was in Guantanamo for less than two months (Feb. 11 to April 5, 2002) while his legal status was sorted out. Considering he was caught in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban, I'd put that in the "a win for the republic" column.
  - belorn 13y ago
    There is a whole article on wikipedia on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantana... That said, US citizens has been sent to gitmo. They might been transferred out of there at a later time, but there is no denying that it happened. Then we have people like José Padilla who was held for several years without a trial, and only after major pressure from civil groups was he transferred to a civilian court. Being indefinite held without a trial until political pressure pushes the issues to the breaking point does not exactly paint a great picture.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      The article says that "The United States Department of Defense acknowledges holding 99 American citizens captured in Afghanistan, during the 'war on terror', and one of them was held, for a time, in Guantanamo." It continues: "But although Yasser Hamdi was born in the USA, he was raised in Saudi Arabia, and Joint Task Force Guantanamo counter-terrorism analysts did not realize he was an American." Your original comment was: "No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from." They obviously care, which is why the American citizens were either transferred out or never sent there in the first place, despite being caught fighting in Afghanistan.
Jacqued 13y ago
To be fair, nobody thinks the U.S. has reached the same level in practice against U.S. citizens than Beijing against chinese citizens or Moscow against russian reporters. U.S. citizens are still somewhat protected by the Bill of Rights (well, other than the 4th and soon the 5th). Now when it comes to foreigners there's not much that can be said for the U.S - although the border can be somewhat thin with extraordinary renditions and withdrawal of nationality to allow for arbitrary executions. Also, it seems that the will to deconstruct civil liberties is nowhere as strong as it is in Washington DC (except in Pyongyang), so that doesn't help. And the american people do not seem to care at all (but then again, the same is happening in Europe to a smaller extent, and the people don't care either) So I'd say this perception is more linked to the direction you're headed to than to the place where you are right now (although that is scary in its own right too) Some days I just think I should move to Iceland
mtgx 13y ago
Journalists are starting to be arrested, protesting is becoming increasingly harder, when the police starts arresting them as soon as they seem them, on BS grounds, and as others mentioned there's Gitmo and the torture, and the CIA kidnappings.
- Loughla 13y ago
  Citations?
vacri 13y ago
You may not want to wave your "people in the US aren't incarcerated unjustly" flag too hard, not to mention that prison labour is a quickly growing industry in the US.
mcherm 13y ago
> Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial? No. But US citizens are routinely arrested and placed in solitary confinement (widely held to be worse than a labor camp) for decades without a trial (guilt is nearly always resolved via plea bargains using the threat of even more years). And by "routinely" I mean the highest incarceration rate in the world: about 0.75% of the population.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Uh, no to "decades without trial". And, for that matter, to "solitary confinement" as a routine, since we simply don't have that number of empty jail (not prison) cells anyways. It's funny how you mention having a jail cell with no one to bother you as worse than a labor camp though. I think those who have survived gulags or Nazi labor camps might disagree with you on that.
  - euroclydon 13y ago
    There's a lot of evidence to suggest that solitary confinement is a form of torture. See this highly discussed recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790
    - mpyne 13y ago
      I didn't say people don't find solitary confinement to be a form of torture. I did say it's still better than labor camps, especially for the types of "solitary confinement" usually being discussed, which are "cells or prison wings without other prisoners" and not "dark holes with only a slot on the door". Should I ever go to prison I would greatly prefer the "prison wing without other prisoners", though I understand that's only a personal preference.
      - euroclydon 13y ago
        Depends on the labor camp I guess. Gulags were meat grinders, especially during the war and famine years in Russia.

belorn 13y ago

> "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?" No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from.

rayiner 13y ago
This is not true. Even US citizens capptured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban were transferred out of gitmo.
- epsylon 13y ago
  But non-US citizens can liberally have their basic human rights denied. 12 years after 9/11. That's the land of the free for you. (Looking at how Bradley Manning was treated even shows that US citizens aren't treated much better. Being denied a lawyer and confined to solitary cells for months is not much different from torture.)
  - DannoHung 13y ago
    Manning was a member of the Army. You give up a significant number of rights and freedoms as a US citizen when you become a member of the armed forces. Which is not to say that it is right, but that it is legal.
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      At this point, American law is completely corrupt. Who gives a damn about it? What they've done to Bradley Manning isn't right, at all.
      - jvictor118 13y ago
        Bradley Manning was a member of the Armed Forces who released classified information to the public. What planet are you living on that his prosecution is unwarranted?
        eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        What planning are you living on where physical and psychological torture is a warranted response to breaking military law?
        lhc- 13y ago
        Prosecution would be warranted. Indefinite detainment and torture is never warranted, especially for a US citizen.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      And also, Manning wasn't denied a lawyer, even in his first confinement facility. I remember this vividly because Manning's own lawyer was the one who admitted that Manning had joked about killing himself before being placed on prevention-of-suicide status...
- asynchronous13 13y ago
  Except for Yasser Hamdi, it took them a few months before they realized he was a u.s. citizen.
  - rgbrenner 13y ago
    And when they found out he was a US citizen (about 6 months after capture), he was transferred to military jails in Virginia and South Carolina. He was in the system for a total of 3 years, and then in exchange for renouncing his US citizenship and agreeing to travel restrictions, etc, he was released and deported to Saudi Arabia where he grew up. Note the phrasing, he wasn't 'transferred' to Saudi Arabia, he was released, and given a plane ticket home. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Esam_Hamdi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Esam_Hamdi
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Hamdi was in Guantanamo for less than two months (Feb. 11 to April 5, 2002) while his legal status was sorted out. Considering he was caught in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban, I'd put that in the "a win for the republic" column.
- belorn 13y ago
  There is a whole article on wikipedia on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantana... That said, US citizens has been sent to gitmo. They might been transferred out of there at a later time, but there is no denying that it happened. Then we have people like José Padilla who was held for several years without a trial, and only after major pressure from civil groups was he transferred to a civilian court. Being indefinite held without a trial until political pressure pushes the issues to the breaking point does not exactly paint a great picture.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    The article says that "The United States Department of Defense acknowledges holding 99 American citizens captured in Afghanistan, during the 'war on terror', and one of them was held, for a time, in Guantanamo." It continues: "But although Yasser Hamdi was born in the USA, he was raised in Saudi Arabia, and Joint Task Force Guantanamo counter-terrorism analysts did not realize he was an American." Your original comment was: "No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from." They obviously care, which is why the American citizens were either transferred out or never sent there in the first place, despite being caught fighting in Afghanistan.

Jacqued 13y ago

To be fair, nobody thinks the U.S. has reached the same level in practice against U.S. citizens than Beijing against chinese citizens or Moscow against russian reporters. U.S. citizens are still somewhat protected by the Bill of Rights (well, other than the 4th and soon the 5th). Now when it comes to foreigners there's not much that can be said for the U.S - although the border can be somewhat thin with extraordinary renditions and withdrawal of nationality to allow for arbitrary executions. Also, it seems that the will to deconstruct civil liberties is nowhere as strong as it is in Washington DC (except in Pyongyang), so that doesn't help. And the american people do not seem to care at all (but then again, the same is happening in Europe to a smaller extent, and the people don't care either) So I'd say this perception is more linked to the direction you're headed to than to the place where you are right now (although that is scary in its own right too) Some days I just think I should move to Iceland

mtgx 13y ago

Journalists are starting to be arrested, protesting is becoming increasingly harder, when the police starts arresting them as soon as they seem them, on BS grounds, and as others mentioned there's Gitmo and the torture, and the CIA kidnappings.

Loughla 13y ago
Citations?

vacri 13y ago

You may not want to wave your "people in the US aren't incarcerated unjustly" flag too hard, not to mention that prison labour is a quickly growing industry in the US.

mcherm 13y ago

> Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial? No. But US citizens are routinely arrested and placed in solitary confinement (widely held to be worse than a labor camp) for decades without a trial (guilt is nearly always resolved via plea bargains using the threat of even more years). And by "routinely" I mean the highest incarceration rate in the world: about 0.75% of the population.

mpyne 13y ago
Uh, no to "decades without trial". And, for that matter, to "solitary confinement" as a routine, since we simply don't have that number of empty jail (not prison) cells anyways. It's funny how you mention having a jail cell with no one to bother you as worse than a labor camp though. I think those who have survived gulags or Nazi labor camps might disagree with you on that.
- euroclydon 13y ago
  There's a lot of evidence to suggest that solitary confinement is a form of torture. See this highly discussed recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I didn't say people don't find solitary confinement to be a form of torture. I did say it's still better than labor camps, especially for the types of "solitary confinement" usually being discussed, which are "cells or prison wings without other prisoners" and not "dark holes with only a slot on the door". Should I ever go to prison I would greatly prefer the "prison wing without other prisoners", though I understand that's only a personal preference.
    - euroclydon 13y ago
      Depends on the labor camp I guess. Gulags were meat grinders, especially during the war and famine years in Russia.