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Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United States influence inside Australia.

youngerdryas 13y ago
You do know that Australia and NZ share intel with your boogie monster don't you?
- josephagoss 13y ago
  I understand this, and that scares me. :(
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
euroclydon 13y ago
You certainly do not speak for everyone outside the U.S. who has asked themselves the question: "Can I name a U.S. reporter who has disappeared or been murdered for producing material critical of the government?" or "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?"
- belorn 13y ago
  > "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?" No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    This is not true. Even US citizens capptured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban were transferred out of gitmo.
    - epsylon 13y ago
      But non-US citizens can liberally have their basic human rights denied. 12 years after 9/11. That's the land of the free for you. (Looking at how Bradley Manning was treated even shows that US citizens aren't treated much better. Being denied a lawyer and confined to solitary cells for months is not much different from torture.)
      - DannoHung 13y ago
        Manning was a member of the Army. You give up a significant number of rights and freedoms as a US citizen when you become a member of the armed forces. Which is not to say that it is right, but that it is legal.
        eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        At this point, American law is completely corrupt. Who gives a damn about it? What they've done to Bradley Manning isn't right, at all.
        jvictor118 13y ago
        Bradley Manning was a member of the Armed Forces who released classified information to the public. What planet are you living on that his prosecution is unwarranted?
        eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        What planning are you living on where physical and psychological torture is a warranted response to breaking military law?
- Jacqued 13y ago
  To be fair, nobody thinks the U.S. has reached the same level in practice against U.S. citizens than Beijing against chinese citizens or Moscow against russian reporters. U.S. citizens are still somewhat protected by the Bill of Rights (well, other than the 4th and soon the 5th). Now when it comes to foreigners there's not much that can be said for the U.S - although the border can be somewhat thin with extraordinary renditions and withdrawal of nationality to allow for arbitrary executions. Also, it seems that the will to deconstruct civil liberties is nowhere as strong as it is in Washington DC (except in Pyongyang), so that doesn't help. And the american people do not seem to care at all (but then again, the same is happening in Europe to a smaller extent, and the people don't care either) So I'd say this perception is more linked to the direction you're headed to than to the place where you are right now (although that is scary in its own right too) Some days I just think I should move to Iceland
- mtgx 13y ago
  Journalists are starting to be arrested, protesting is becoming increasingly harder, when the police starts arresting them as soon as they seem them, on BS grounds, and as others mentioned there's Gitmo and the torture, and the CIA kidnappings.
  - Loughla 13y ago
    Citations?
- vacri 13y ago
  You may not want to wave your "people in the US aren't incarcerated unjustly" flag too hard, not to mention that prison labour is a quickly growing industry in the US.
- mcherm 13y ago
  > Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial? No. But US citizens are routinely arrested and placed in solitary confinement (widely held to be worse than a labor camp) for decades without a trial (guilt is nearly always resolved via plea bargains using the threat of even more years). And by "routinely" I mean the highest incarceration rate in the world: about 0.75% of the population.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Uh, no to "decades without trial". And, for that matter, to "solitary confinement" as a routine, since we simply don't have that number of empty jail (not prison) cells anyways. It's funny how you mention having a jail cell with no one to bother you as worse than a labor camp though. I think those who have survived gulags or Nazi labor camps might disagree with you on that.
    - euroclydon 13y ago
      There's a lot of evidence to suggest that solitary confinement is a form of torture. See this highly discussed recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790
      - mpyne 13y ago
        I didn't say people don't find solitary confinement to be a form of torture. I did say it's still better than labor camps, especially for the types of "solitary confinement" usually being discussed, which are "cells or prison wings without other prisoners" and not "dark holes with only a slot on the door". Should I ever go to prison I would greatly prefer the "prison wing without other prisoners", though I understand that's only a personal preference.
        euroclydon 13y ago
        Depends on the labor camp I guess. Gulags were meat grinders, especially during the war and famine years in Russia.
twoodfin 13y ago
I can't even begin to comprehend how bad your sources of information are if you think the levels of freedom in the U.S. and China are more closely comparable than those of the U.S. and Australia.
- onli 13y ago
  Killing prisoners -> check imprisonment of people opposing the regime, especially the intelligence agencies -> check Torture of prisoners -> check Overly broad powers of the government without checks and balances -> check Intelligence agencies spying on all citizens -> check. Yeah, surely an incomprehensible comparison.
- tekmate 13y ago
  it's more about the perception than actual levels of freedom, the US is a country that tortures, detains people from all over the world indefinitely without trial in an offshore location, bails out bankers while promoting austerity for everyone else, spies on people worldwide, starts wars all over the world, uses remotely controlled killing machines and most of that isn't even new, the veil of the american dream has been ripped apart. what is most depressing is that in the next election cycle, the american people will just run back to the republicans instead of finally giving up on the charade that are political parties
  - onebaddude 13y ago
    >"bails out bankers while promoting austerity for everyone else" How does that work exactly? Do banks operate in a vacuum in the economy? It's my understanding that social program spending (and hence the deficit) over the recession was at all time highs. "Main Street" got its share of the bail out, as it should have.
    - tekmate 13y ago
      like i wrote. it's not about what's really happening in details, but overall perception
    - 13y ago
gizzlon 13y ago
I live in Scandinavia and I don't think most people here see the US in the same light as China and Russia. But, OTOTH, I do think most people see Europe as more open than the US. It's not like it's a unique and magical "land of the free" like some people seem to believe.
- Jare 13y ago
  My overall, fact-less impression is that the UK has already cast a pretty wide public surveillance net. They don't seem to be actually using it for enforcing anything, however. I don't think I would blink twice if it turns out they have a PRISM-like operation going on.
  - mbesto 13y ago
    CCTV runs like mad across the UK. Well at least London. Almost every street corner here has a CCTV vid cam on it.
    - mixedbit 13y ago
      Right: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bansky_one_nation_under_cctv.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bansky_one_nation_un...
    - vidarh 13y ago
      The vast majority of CCTV in the UK is privately owned, not networked and most of it is not watched live, or ever unless something actually happens. The police often ignores CCTV because figuring out who controls which cameras and whether or not they were working, and if so how to get the footage can be too time consuming to be worth it. So while I can't say I like the amount of CCTV here, it's a lot less sinister than portrayed. Now, some parts of central London is very well covered by live, monitored CCTV, though.
- gadders 13y ago
  Any country that requires identity cards (such as France) has already lost its claim to be more free.
StavrosK 13y ago
Okay, josephagoss's comparison to China and Russia is a bit too much, but the point still stands. I've thought about moving to the US, but the lack of freedoms, even in everyday life (visiting a friend who recently moved to LA and seeing him scared of the police was very new to me (and him, when he moved there)) is a big deterrent.
dagw 13y ago
I live in Sweden and while most people here are pretty critical to US, most people also realize that they are not in the same league as China and Russia.
stevoski 13y ago
I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign countries, including their own citizens based on the president's decision. Sometimes through mistaken identity or bad intel or pure human error the wrong person is killed, or the right person is killed with their children * The "Kids for Cash Scandal" where a judge received kickbacks from a prison owner to give juveniles harsher sentences. * And finally, spying at an enormous degree on the US population at large. These are astonishing things and I'm even more staggered that people en masse don't get outraged by these things and demand change.
- xradionut 13y ago
  Most of the US populous has jobs, beer and entertainment. Plus they might with the lottery some day and join the 1%.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - qwerta 13y ago
    1% in prison? :-)
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Distracted by the various opiates of the masses. And that's the problem, while people have their comforts and believe that bad things only happen to other "guilty" people, or should I say other guilty "Americans", government gets away with what ever it likes.
- powertower 13y ago
  What you posted are a few negative events. What you did not post are the few million or billion positive events that happened at the same time. What you're reading/seeing is an ever increasingly opinionated and vocal crowd that think they possess the truth and are right about everything. They want a perfect system. And a simple system. And worst of all, they don't know what they don't know (how utterly destructive their actions and changes would be). So this negativity parade continues... Where they hold a magnifying glass on the few negative events while pretending what they are seeing is the entire picture.
taktix 13y ago
In China, the government is predictable and the streets are safe. In the US, the government is the enemy of the people and young school children are massacred while in public school for no reason. America, you have NOTHING to brag about.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%9312%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010...
cLeEOGPw 13y ago
Have to agree on this. USA has lost it's appeal for me for quite some time now. For me the countries that I'd like to live in the most are Switzerland, Canada, Australia (I don't know about the US influence there much though), maybe Germany or other similar Western European state, but certainly not US. I live in Eastern Europe btw.
- honzzz 13y ago
  I live in Eastern Europe too and I remember the times when the US was really perceived as "land of free" here. I believe that now we have way more freedom than the Americans. I personally feel uncomfortable enough to avoid travelling to the US which is a shame because I had spent months over there before 9/11 and shortly after and I had great times.
zmb_ 13y ago
As a European I wouldn't say I see the USA in the same light as China and Russia, but I definitely feel uncomfortable when I have to travel to the US for work. Given the US's recent track record with human rights and the ongoing mass surveillance, I just can't be sure some innocent comment on some website I've made at some point won't flag me and cause me to be indefinitely detained. I know it's probably not likely, but the possibility is real enough that it makes me uncomfortable. I'd rather work in countries where I know I have rights that will be strongly upheld. When I traveled to the US first time with a new passport (Chicago, year 200X) I was taken to a police station at the airport and made to answer various questions (I'm a whiter than white male from Northern Europe). The answers were entered into what I assume is some monster database, and I was never explained why this was done or what would be done with the data. It certainly didn't make me feel like I was entering the "land of the free", rather I felt like I was entering a police state.
- dawkins 13y ago
  I'm european too and while I don't consider the US in the same league as China or Russia I had the same feeling the last time I traveled to US.
- gadders 13y ago
  As a contrary anecdote, I've travelled to the US many times for business and pleasure. I've never had any feeling I was under surveillance, about to be detained tec.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    You may not have had that feeling but you were obviously under surveillance, even before you entered.
- xtracto 13y ago
  Did you have to take a photograph and save your 10 fingerprints and disclose all your personal and economic information to get into the USA? I had to... because it seems for the USA, any Mexican that dares to enter the country is a potential criminal, so there I am in the huge Mexa database. Just because I needed to spend a week in the USA for work. Whereas the 7 years I lived in Europe (UK and Germany) I did not feel as "guilty". Even with Germany's Rathaus compulsory city registrations.
shirro 13y ago
I don't think the USA is comparable to the worst offenders unless you are looking at a list of bullet points instead of the big picture. But it is hard not to feel the USA is heading down the wrong path. As allies we are compelled by our national interests to follow down the same rabbit hole to some extent and to me it feels our country is morally compromised pushing for data retention laws comparable to Prism when we have no demonstrated domestic need for such things. However Aussies, Swedes, New Zealanders, many small countries rely heavily on the US for our security and there really isn't much option but to tough it out and hope the US turns it around from within.
powertower 13y ago
> To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I feel perfectly safe. This whole entire issue about the government collecting meta-data is overblown IMO. And comparing it to tyranny and demanding rioting on the streets is literally self-destructive and utmost retarded. Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. But instead the majority of people here sit in their comfortable chair in front of the computer fantasizing about how much they hate the government and how much the government must hate them.
- xtracto 13y ago
  Good for you that you feel safe. An American colleague of mine (doing a 2nd PhD in Liverpool while I was doing my first/only one) told me he did not create accounts in Google/Yahoo/Hot mail not because of what could happen at this time, but at what the people with that information could do in the future. Right now, you feel perfectly safe in your comfortable chair, having all your information in Google, Facebook, and other servers. But after a small wrong turn of events (that I hope do not happen), you might find yourself in the wrong place and the wrong time, and all your innocently shared information (shared with google, microsoft, facebook, etc) will be used by your government to condemn you.
  - jvictor118 13y ago
    What exactly is "all this data" you're worried the government will see? What are you doing on Google and Facebook? I have this funny feeling the NSA doesn't care about your memes or JS plugins or whatever stupid crap you talk about on Facebook.
  - reader5000 13y ago
    You could also develop liver cancer and die, regardless of your cloud data usage!
    - mvaliente2001 13y ago
      That's why you don't care about liver cancer when you use the cloud.
mbesto 13y ago
Let's be fair, you don't speak on behalf of your whole country, nor the "many other people from outside the USA" so I can only take your comment "we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia" with a fine grain of salt...as should others. I say this on top of the fact that I'm someone who lives in London, where I interact with Aussies, Brits, Kiwis, Americans, and Europeans (amongst many others) on a daily basis. I haven't had an even seen an inkling of what you're describing, but again, you and I are just one and two data points. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I'm not sure what your background is, but for 99% of the population of the world, the US is a comparatively very safe place to live.
cema 13y ago
we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms I think I understand where it is coming from. Perception is there, and perception is important. There is however a big difference between China and Russia on one hand and USA on the other: the openness of the US society is, among other things, manifested in noticing and magnifying dirty spots. Other countries with Western European cultural traditions or influences (this includes Australia and NZ but also Japan and Israel, for example) are on the same "other hand". One reason the focus is often on the USA is how it positions itself in the ideological space, as a pinnacle of liberty and freedoms and so on. Personally, while I avoid ideologies and ideologues as much as I can, I think there is a positive side to it, which is precisely the level of scrutiny typical for the US.
- dspillett 13y ago
  > There is however a big difference between China and Russia on one hand and USA on the other: the openness of the US society is, among other things, manifested in noticing and magnifying dirty spots. True, but that just means that the people are more (but far from completely) able to be aware of what is being done to them and more free to talk about it. It doesn't change the spirit behind the government agency's actions, and even then "able to be more aware" covers a lot of ground as things like the recent revelations are only heresay (and ignored by most) until good evidence somehow becomes public knowledge.
- jckt 13y ago
  I agree with you, but I'd also like to point out that, despite the ridiculous censorship and corruption in China and Russia, it's not like the DPRK where everyone is mind-controlled (exaggeration) and there's no real dissidence. I might even say that the "culture of dissidence" in Russia and China is more healthy than the typical Westerner is aware of (simple language barriers, etc), and has improved over time. On the other hand, yes, the USA is much better right now. However, one can say that the important distinction is that, while China in particular seems to have improved over the last 20 years, the USA has gotten worse (w.r.t. freedoms). But of course, this is up for debate.
gadders 13y ago
This is ridiculous. I don't see much chance of Obama and Biden swapping roles to get round term limits (Russia). America doesn't also have 1,000s of dissidents in jail and widespread censoring and firewalling of external objectionable content. Have you even been to America lately? And I'm saying this as a Brit.
skaevola 13y ago
The fact that we're having this conversation proves how wrong you are. If you honestly see the world this way, you might take the time learn more about China's internet. A good starting point are the 9 articles in the economist's special report: http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21574628-internet-was-expected-help-democratise-china-instead-it-has-enabled http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21574628-intern...
stephen_g 13y ago
As an Australian, I'd say that comparing them to China and Russia is too far, but the general feeling is that the US is far less free than Australia, NZ or most European countries. For example, the fact that you call yourself the land of the free whilst having the largest number of people in prison both by number and proportion of the population, the whole Guantanamo Bay thing, and the constant electronic surveillance, the crazy overreach of the TSA (I couldn't believe it when I had to take off my shoes and jacket at an airport when I passed through the US a few years ago - crazy!) etc.
hopeless 13y ago
(grew up in the UK, live in Ireland) I don't consider the U.S. as the same as China or Russia (or North Korea, etc) but I don't consider them in the same league as any European country either. Having said that, I think the U.S. is more of a danger outside its borders than China/Russia/N. Korea. I haven't travelled to the U.S. in the last 10yrs, despite wanting to for conferences or meetings or a wedding, because I consider it to be a hostile environment.
rocky1138 13y ago
Same from Canada.

youngerdryas 13y ago

You do know that Australia and NZ share intel with your boogie monster don't you?

josephagoss 13y ago
I understand this, and that scares me. :(

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

euroclydon 13y ago

You certainly do not speak for everyone outside the U.S. who has asked themselves the question: "Can I name a U.S. reporter who has disappeared or been murdered for producing material critical of the government?" or "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?"

belorn 13y ago
> "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?" No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from.
- rayiner 13y ago
  This is not true. Even US citizens capptured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban were transferred out of gitmo.
  - epsylon 13y ago
    But non-US citizens can liberally have their basic human rights denied. 12 years after 9/11. That's the land of the free for you. (Looking at how Bradley Manning was treated even shows that US citizens aren't treated much better. Being denied a lawyer and confined to solitary cells for months is not much different from torture.)
    - DannoHung 13y ago
      Manning was a member of the Army. You give up a significant number of rights and freedoms as a US citizen when you become a member of the armed forces. Which is not to say that it is right, but that it is legal.
      - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        At this point, American law is completely corrupt. Who gives a damn about it? What they've done to Bradley Manning isn't right, at all.
        jvictor118 13y ago
        Bradley Manning was a member of the Armed Forces who released classified information to the public. What planet are you living on that his prosecution is unwarranted?
        eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        What planning are you living on where physical and psychological torture is a warranted response to breaking military law?
Jacqued 13y ago
To be fair, nobody thinks the U.S. has reached the same level in practice against U.S. citizens than Beijing against chinese citizens or Moscow against russian reporters. U.S. citizens are still somewhat protected by the Bill of Rights (well, other than the 4th and soon the 5th). Now when it comes to foreigners there's not much that can be said for the U.S - although the border can be somewhat thin with extraordinary renditions and withdrawal of nationality to allow for arbitrary executions. Also, it seems that the will to deconstruct civil liberties is nowhere as strong as it is in Washington DC (except in Pyongyang), so that doesn't help. And the american people do not seem to care at all (but then again, the same is happening in Europe to a smaller extent, and the people don't care either) So I'd say this perception is more linked to the direction you're headed to than to the place where you are right now (although that is scary in its own right too) Some days I just think I should move to Iceland
mtgx 13y ago
Journalists are starting to be arrested, protesting is becoming increasingly harder, when the police starts arresting them as soon as they seem them, on BS grounds, and as others mentioned there's Gitmo and the torture, and the CIA kidnappings.
- Loughla 13y ago
  Citations?
vacri 13y ago
You may not want to wave your "people in the US aren't incarcerated unjustly" flag too hard, not to mention that prison labour is a quickly growing industry in the US.
mcherm 13y ago
> Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial? No. But US citizens are routinely arrested and placed in solitary confinement (widely held to be worse than a labor camp) for decades without a trial (guilt is nearly always resolved via plea bargains using the threat of even more years). And by "routinely" I mean the highest incarceration rate in the world: about 0.75% of the population.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Uh, no to "decades without trial". And, for that matter, to "solitary confinement" as a routine, since we simply don't have that number of empty jail (not prison) cells anyways. It's funny how you mention having a jail cell with no one to bother you as worse than a labor camp though. I think those who have survived gulags or Nazi labor camps might disagree with you on that.
  - euroclydon 13y ago
    There's a lot of evidence to suggest that solitary confinement is a form of torture. See this highly discussed recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790
    - mpyne 13y ago
      I didn't say people don't find solitary confinement to be a form of torture. I did say it's still better than labor camps, especially for the types of "solitary confinement" usually being discussed, which are "cells or prison wings without other prisoners" and not "dark holes with only a slot on the door". Should I ever go to prison I would greatly prefer the "prison wing without other prisoners", though I understand that's only a personal preference.
      - euroclydon 13y ago
        Depends on the labor camp I guess. Gulags were meat grinders, especially during the war and famine years in Russia.

twoodfin 13y ago

I can't even begin to comprehend how bad your sources of information are if you think the levels of freedom in the U.S. and China are more closely comparable than those of the U.S. and Australia.

onli 13y ago
Killing prisoners -> check imprisonment of people opposing the regime, especially the intelligence agencies -> check Torture of prisoners -> check Overly broad powers of the government without checks and balances -> check Intelligence agencies spying on all citizens -> check. Yeah, surely an incomprehensible comparison.
tekmate 13y ago
it's more about the perception than actual levels of freedom, the US is a country that tortures, detains people from all over the world indefinitely without trial in an offshore location, bails out bankers while promoting austerity for everyone else, spies on people worldwide, starts wars all over the world, uses remotely controlled killing machines and most of that isn't even new, the veil of the american dream has been ripped apart. what is most depressing is that in the next election cycle, the american people will just run back to the republicans instead of finally giving up on the charade that are political parties
- onebaddude 13y ago
  >"bails out bankers while promoting austerity for everyone else" How does that work exactly? Do banks operate in a vacuum in the economy? It's my understanding that social program spending (and hence the deficit) over the recession was at all time highs. "Main Street" got its share of the bail out, as it should have.
  - tekmate 13y ago
    like i wrote. it's not about what's really happening in details, but overall perception
  - 13y ago

gizzlon 13y ago

I live in Scandinavia and I don't think most people here see the US in the same light as China and Russia. But, OTOTH, I do think most people see Europe as more open than the US. It's not like it's a unique and magical "land of the free" like some people seem to believe.

Jare 13y ago
My overall, fact-less impression is that the UK has already cast a pretty wide public surveillance net. They don't seem to be actually using it for enforcing anything, however. I don't think I would blink twice if it turns out they have a PRISM-like operation going on.
- mbesto 13y ago
  CCTV runs like mad across the UK. Well at least London. Almost every street corner here has a CCTV vid cam on it.
  - mixedbit 13y ago
    Right: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bansky_one_nation_under_cctv.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bansky_one_nation_un...
  - vidarh 13y ago
    The vast majority of CCTV in the UK is privately owned, not networked and most of it is not watched live, or ever unless something actually happens. The police often ignores CCTV because figuring out who controls which cameras and whether or not they were working, and if so how to get the footage can be too time consuming to be worth it. So while I can't say I like the amount of CCTV here, it's a lot less sinister than portrayed. Now, some parts of central London is very well covered by live, monitored CCTV, though.
gadders 13y ago
Any country that requires identity cards (such as France) has already lost its claim to be more free.

StavrosK 13y ago

Okay, josephagoss's comparison to China and Russia is a bit too much, but the point still stands. I've thought about moving to the US, but the lack of freedoms, even in everyday life (visiting a friend who recently moved to LA and seeing him scared of the police was very new to me (and him, when he moved there)) is a big deterrent.

dagw 13y ago

I live in Sweden and while most people here are pretty critical to US, most people also realize that they are not in the same league as China and Russia.

stevoski 13y ago

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign countries, including their own citizens based on the president's decision. Sometimes through mistaken identity or bad intel or pure human error the wrong person is killed, or the right person is killed with their children * The "Kids for Cash Scandal" where a judge received kickbacks from a prison owner to give juveniles harsher sentences. * And finally, spying at an enormous degree on the US population at large. These are astonishing things and I'm even more staggered that people en masse don't get outraged by these things and demand change.

xradionut 13y ago
Most of the US populous has jobs, beer and entertainment. Plus they might with the lottery some day and join the 1%.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- qwerta 13y ago
  1% in prison? :-)
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Distracted by the various opiates of the masses. And that's the problem, while people have their comforts and believe that bad things only happen to other "guilty" people, or should I say other guilty "Americans", government gets away with what ever it likes.
powertower 13y ago
What you posted are a few negative events. What you did not post are the few million or billion positive events that happened at the same time. What you're reading/seeing is an ever increasingly opinionated and vocal crowd that think they possess the truth and are right about everything. They want a perfect system. And a simple system. And worst of all, they don't know what they don't know (how utterly destructive their actions and changes would be). So this negativity parade continues... Where they hold a magnifying glass on the few negative events while pretending what they are seeing is the entire picture.

taktix 13y ago

In China, the government is predictable and the streets are safe. In the US, the government is the enemy of the people and young school children are massacred while in public school for no reason. America, you have NOTHING to brag about.

pessimizer 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%9312%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010...

cLeEOGPw 13y ago

Have to agree on this. USA has lost it's appeal for me for quite some time now. For me the countries that I'd like to live in the most are Switzerland, Canada, Australia (I don't know about the US influence there much though), maybe Germany or other similar Western European state, but certainly not US. I live in Eastern Europe btw.

honzzz 13y ago
I live in Eastern Europe too and I remember the times when the US was really perceived as "land of free" here. I believe that now we have way more freedom than the Americans. I personally feel uncomfortable enough to avoid travelling to the US which is a shame because I had spent months over there before 9/11 and shortly after and I had great times.

zmb_ 13y ago

As a European I wouldn't say I see the USA in the same light as China and Russia, but I definitely feel uncomfortable when I have to travel to the US for work. Given the US's recent track record with human rights and the ongoing mass surveillance, I just can't be sure some innocent comment on some website I've made at some point won't flag me and cause me to be indefinitely detained. I know it's probably not likely, but the possibility is real enough that it makes me uncomfortable. I'd rather work in countries where I know I have rights that will be strongly upheld. When I traveled to the US first time with a new passport (Chicago, year 200X) I was taken to a police station at the airport and made to answer various questions (I'm a whiter than white male from Northern Europe). The answers were entered into what I assume is some monster database, and I was never explained why this was done or what would be done with the data. It certainly didn't make me feel like I was entering the "land of the free", rather I felt like I was entering a police state.

dawkins 13y ago
I'm european too and while I don't consider the US in the same league as China or Russia I had the same feeling the last time I traveled to US.
gadders 13y ago
As a contrary anecdote, I've travelled to the US many times for business and pleasure. I've never had any feeling I was under surveillance, about to be detained tec.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  You may not have had that feeling but you were obviously under surveillance, even before you entered.
xtracto 13y ago
Did you have to take a photograph and save your 10 fingerprints and disclose all your personal and economic information to get into the USA? I had to... because it seems for the USA, any Mexican that dares to enter the country is a potential criminal, so there I am in the huge Mexa database. Just because I needed to spend a week in the USA for work. Whereas the 7 years I lived in Europe (UK and Germany) I did not feel as "guilty". Even with Germany's Rathaus compulsory city registrations.

shirro 13y ago

I don't think the USA is comparable to the worst offenders unless you are looking at a list of bullet points instead of the big picture. But it is hard not to feel the USA is heading down the wrong path. As allies we are compelled by our national interests to follow down the same rabbit hole to some extent and to me it feels our country is morally compromised pushing for data retention laws comparable to Prism when we have no demonstrated domestic need for such things. However Aussies, Swedes, New Zealanders, many small countries rely heavily on the US for our security and there really isn't much option but to tough it out and hope the US turns it around from within.

powertower 13y ago

> To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I feel perfectly safe. This whole entire issue about the government collecting meta-data is overblown IMO. And comparing it to tyranny and demanding rioting on the streets is literally self-destructive and utmost retarded. Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. But instead the majority of people here sit in their comfortable chair in front of the computer fantasizing about how much they hate the government and how much the government must hate them.

xtracto 13y ago
Good for you that you feel safe. An American colleague of mine (doing a 2nd PhD in Liverpool while I was doing my first/only one) told me he did not create accounts in Google/Yahoo/Hot mail not because of what could happen at this time, but at what the people with that information could do in the future. Right now, you feel perfectly safe in your comfortable chair, having all your information in Google, Facebook, and other servers. But after a small wrong turn of events (that I hope do not happen), you might find yourself in the wrong place and the wrong time, and all your innocently shared information (shared with google, microsoft, facebook, etc) will be used by your government to condemn you.
- jvictor118 13y ago
  What exactly is "all this data" you're worried the government will see? What are you doing on Google and Facebook? I have this funny feeling the NSA doesn't care about your memes or JS plugins or whatever stupid crap you talk about on Facebook.
- reader5000 13y ago
  You could also develop liver cancer and die, regardless of your cloud data usage!
  - mvaliente2001 13y ago
    That's why you don't care about liver cancer when you use the cloud.

mbesto 13y ago

Let's be fair, you don't speak on behalf of your whole country, nor the "many other people from outside the USA" so I can only take your comment "we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia" with a fine grain of salt...as should others. I say this on top of the fact that I'm someone who lives in London, where I interact with Aussies, Brits, Kiwis, Americans, and Europeans (amongst many others) on a daily basis. I haven't had an even seen an inkling of what you're describing, but again, you and I are just one and two data points. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I'm not sure what your background is, but for 99% of the population of the world, the US is a comparatively very safe place to live.

cema 13y ago

we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms I think I understand where it is coming from. Perception is there, and perception is important. There is however a big difference between China and Russia on one hand and USA on the other: the openness of the US society is, among other things, manifested in noticing and magnifying dirty spots. Other countries with Western European cultural traditions or influences (this includes Australia and NZ but also Japan and Israel, for example) are on the same "other hand". One reason the focus is often on the USA is how it positions itself in the ideological space, as a pinnacle of liberty and freedoms and so on. Personally, while I avoid ideologies and ideologues as much as I can, I think there is a positive side to it, which is precisely the level of scrutiny typical for the US.

dspillett 13y ago
> There is however a big difference between China and Russia on one hand and USA on the other: the openness of the US society is, among other things, manifested in noticing and magnifying dirty spots. True, but that just means that the people are more (but far from completely) able to be aware of what is being done to them and more free to talk about it. It doesn't change the spirit behind the government agency's actions, and even then "able to be more aware" covers a lot of ground as things like the recent revelations are only heresay (and ignored by most) until good evidence somehow becomes public knowledge.
jckt 13y ago
I agree with you, but I'd also like to point out that, despite the ridiculous censorship and corruption in China and Russia, it's not like the DPRK where everyone is mind-controlled (exaggeration) and there's no real dissidence. I might even say that the "culture of dissidence" in Russia and China is more healthy than the typical Westerner is aware of (simple language barriers, etc), and has improved over time. On the other hand, yes, the USA is much better right now. However, one can say that the important distinction is that, while China in particular seems to have improved over the last 20 years, the USA has gotten worse (w.r.t. freedoms). But of course, this is up for debate.

gadders 13y ago

This is ridiculous. I don't see much chance of Obama and Biden swapping roles to get round term limits (Russia). America doesn't also have 1,000s of dissidents in jail and widespread censoring and firewalling of external objectionable content. Have you even been to America lately? And I'm saying this as a Brit.

skaevola 13y ago

The fact that we're having this conversation proves how wrong you are. If you honestly see the world this way, you might take the time learn more about China's internet. A good starting point are the 9 articles in the economist's special report: http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21574628-internet-was-expected-help-democratise-china-instead-it-has-enabled http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21574628-intern...

stephen_g 13y ago

As an Australian, I'd say that comparing them to China and Russia is too far, but the general feeling is that the US is far less free than Australia, NZ or most European countries. For example, the fact that you call yourself the land of the free whilst having the largest number of people in prison both by number and proportion of the population, the whole Guantanamo Bay thing, and the constant electronic surveillance, the crazy overreach of the TSA (I couldn't believe it when I had to take off my shoes and jacket at an airport when I passed through the US a few years ago - crazy!) etc.

hopeless 13y ago

(grew up in the UK, live in Ireland) I don't consider the U.S. as the same as China or Russia (or North Korea, etc) but I don't consider them in the same league as any European country either. Having said that, I think the U.S. is more of a danger outside its borders than China/Russia/N. Korea. I haven't travelled to the U.S. in the last 10yrs, despite wanting to for conferences or meetings or a wedding, because I consider it to be a hostile environment.

rocky1138 13y ago

Same from Canada.