9 ms·

Hong Kong Baffled by Snowden’s Hideout

130 points by nir 13y ago

cryptokill 13y ago
This stuff proves to me that these programs have no value in stopping things that have not yet happened. Like the boston bombings and this guy, I sure there was a huge trail of evidence that didn't get identified in time to stop the actual act.
- joonix 13y ago
  Or that the programs are not being abused widely for surveillance outside of their stated purpose?
  - revscat 13y ago
    Not worth it. The risk from totalitarian regimes is far greater than the risk from terrorism. Governments have more resources, by far. Even if we assume that PRISM is being used completely above-the-board the potential for abuse is still large enough to warrant reconsideration.
uvdiv 13y ago
Then again, if Snowden were hypothetically spying for the PRC, Hong Kong would be the most logical place to seek protection. In this scenario the PRC would credibly protect him from the US, and European liberal democracies would not.
- Spearchucker 13y ago
  If he was spying, then why Hong Kong, and why not Beijing directly?
  - olalonde 13y ago
    Beijing woud look incredibly suspicious wouldn't it? It would be hard to buy the "strong freedom of speech tradition" story.
  - uvdiv 13y ago
    Why not? They're both in the sovereign territory of China.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
      - uvdiv 13y ago
        The OP explains that the Hong Kong judicial system would handle an extradition, but Beijing would be able to veto it. "Lawyers said Monday that any extradition request would also need to go through the city’s legal system before Beijing could intercede, a process that would likely be drawn out."
  - liotier 13y ago
    Protection, balanced with plausible deniability.
    - fab13n 13y ago
      Once you're protected, there's no more need for denying.
      - liotier 13y ago
        I mean deniability for the Chinese : Hong Kong is independent enough that they can claim powerlessness to their American partners, but they are the elephant in the room and can ensure that they keep actual control of the situation.
- greghinch 13y ago
  How do you make the jump from leaking the existence of a massive secret surveillance network within the US to him being a spy?? What reason would a spy have to share this info with the public?? Sounds like FUD to me...
  - madaxe 13y ago
    This is the smear they're running already - have seen him referred to as a "Chinese spy" a couple of times already. I'm sure they'll get Greenwald on charges of being his cohort for China. Diplomatic incident ahoy!
- dodyg 13y ago
  Spying 101: don't go public.
mikegioia 13y ago
I would guess that he's not even in Hong Kong anymore, nor at the time of his interview.
- _k 13y ago
  I think he was in Hong Kong for the interview. If he wasn't, the government would use it against him in an attempt to make him look like a liar, an enemy of the state.
barredo 13y ago
Maybe he was ignorant, maybe he was spot on. Maybe his hypothetical extradition will cause a sort-of diplomatic "mess" between Beijing and Honk Kong, leaving him a limbo where neither HK nor China will grant him total asylum but wont extradite him either
- latch 13y ago
  There are two areas where SAR have little independence: defense and foreign affairs. Hong Kong will have its own money, postal service, justice, environment ministry, police, ....but it doesn't have a military and its foreign affairs tends to be limited to economic matters.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
kghose 13y ago
Who is funding him?
- junto 13y ago
  He earned $200,000 a year. Maybe he has some savings.
  - kghose 13y ago
    To me, the real story is possibly how the government over pays contractors. The other real story is not that the government does this, it is that the government did not tell us it did this. THAT makes it underhand. If the government came out and said, look we are storing who calls whom and asking telecos to store that information and, with judicial oversight, we will access that information, and we had a debate about it, that would be the proper way. The government is taking the course "It is better to ask forgiveness than permission". Obama is going to take the rap for this, and I therefore wonder at the timing. I think it is important to realize two things 1. Obama continued the Bush era policies 2. Obama continued the Bush era policies Either that is the ONLY way security can be done, or there is some powerful faction within the bureaucracy which has gotten used to working in the shadows. I think that there is some bunch of bureaucrats who have gotten too used to having information at hand. I think we as a community need to keep using the regular methods offered to us via democracy (like posting on this online forum) to express our wish that a) We be told what the government is doing b) Express our displeasure at the direction the style of governance is going
    - n3rdy 13y ago
      > To me, the real story is possibly how the government over pays contractors. That's the real story to you? An entity that prints its own money (and uses it to spy on everyone), paying too much for contractors?
    - trotsky 13y ago
      There is so much demand in maryland for IT that has a clearance that it bids up the price of anyone reasonably competetant.
kombine 13y ago
So why didn't he go to Iceland in the first place? And would Hong Kong let him out if he decides to leave right now, before the US issued any warrant?
- tracker1 13y ago
  The cover was medical tourism... HK is known for it, Iceland isn't... Also HK is currently in a state of flux in terms of it's asylum process... So he can stay while they even sort out the process of applying/approval etc... it's rather brilliant.
uvdiv 13y ago
This is contradicted somewhat by a different source. This one says Hong Kong is a very good place to seek asylum right now, because there is a moratorium on deporting asylum-seekers: But there is at least one reason it could be incredibly shrewd: Hong Kong's asylum system is currently stuck in a state of limbo that could allow Snowden to exploit a loophole and buy some valuable time. Simon Young, director of the Centre for Comparative and Public Law at the University of Hong Kong, told GlobalPost that a decision delivered by Hong Kong's High Court in March of this year required the government to create a new procedure for reviewing asylum applications. Until the government does this, he said, asylum seekers are allowed to stay in Hong Kong indefinitely. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/130610/why-edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition-asylum http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific...
- oinksoft 13y ago
  Brilliant. It's sad it lends itself so easily to spin, "The Chinese Turned Him!" I expect that is what Americans will be told to believe.
  - randall 13y ago
    But i mean it's curious he did this right as the Chinese PM was visiting Obama, no?
    - IAmAI343 13y ago
      No is not. To you maybe, but not to me. It just looks like a coincidence and that is like I will take it until further evidence emerges. Otherwise we just look like the religious morons whom claim that their religious text is the correct one because it predicted a historical event somewhere in the last two thousand years.
    - fianchetto 13y ago
      Very curious.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
joeco 13y ago
Too many batman movies
tomelders 13y ago
> Hong Kong is the worst place in the world for any person to avoid extradition, with the possible exception of the United Kingdom I'm British, and this both saddens and angers me. It's time for a change.
- kombine 13y ago
  I wouldn't worry too much about it, it is all politics and all selective. A lot of Russians fled to the UK to elude justice in Russia. Whether they are political refugees or indeed committed crimes back home is another matter, but London is certainly a safe harbour for many of them.
  - pekk 13y ago
    For which crime is polonium poisoning a legal sentence? Because if it's not a legal sentence, then it is not a matter of eluding "justice".
    - kombine 13y ago
      That is just one example, others are Berezovsky, Chichvarkin, Akhmed Zakayev to name the few. You should know who Berezovsky is, Chichvarkin created a retail chain for mobile electronics who had his business expropriated by some high ranking cops and Zakayev is a former Chechen rebel. This is what I can bring on top of my head, but I'm sure there are a lot more.
      - dreamfactory 13y ago
        Berezovsky is also dead
    - madaxe 13y ago
      We have two justice systems in the UK, one for you and me, one for people with more money than god.
- notahacker 13y ago
  I'm sceptical about the truth of that claim. For a start, the UK (along with other European countries) has a blanket ban on extraditing anyone that might face capital charges; a detail many countries with extradition treaties and capital punishment systems of their own are unlikely to care too much about. Secondly, the UK government can, and in the last 12 months has vetoed extradition of a high-profile suspect to the US, largely because there was public outcry over the issue.
AhtiK 13y ago
Isn't a luxury hotel the worst place to hide? I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room. Or is this just a 48h maneuver to clear up the political situation and then if needed move to one of the embassies in HK that is more supportive?
- JackpotDen 13y ago
  >Isn't a luxury hotel the worst place to hide? I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room. Depends if you think people want to kill you
- EthanHeilman 13y ago
  >I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room. All those cameras and employees become a protection. Remember when Israel assassinated that arms trafficker in a luxury hotel and all the video footage was released to the internet. It blew ~10+ operatives cover and caused a major diplomatic row about the fake passports used. If the US took action at the hotel the cost in terms of US covert operatives in China blown would be in 10-100s of millions of dollars in training and recruitment. If the US used a third party they would expose that third party to Chinese intelligence. Not including the media firestorm such an action would cause. All security is about raising the cost to the attacker, he has raised it significantly but the US still act if Obama so choose. From the US perspective the damage is done, why bring more negative PR at such a high cost?
JonnieCache 13y ago
Maybe he knows something we don't? Just a guess.
_k 13y ago
He might have an insurance policy. After all, he had access to other data so if they lock him up, they risk problems bigger than they could ever imagine. He may have written a program that releases the information on a certain date. Or someone else has a backup and knows what to do with it. Either that or he's no longer in Hong Kong, sort of like what McAfee did, tell everyone where he's at when he's really no longer there. So when Snowden tells the CIA their office is across the street, it's no more than a tactic to mislead the CIA. Either that, or he hasn't thought this through at all and I find that hard to believe.
- jckt 13y ago
  I find it hard to believe that he can be anywhere so easily. The NSA isn't omniscient, but certainly it keeps close tabs on people that work with/for them?
  - JamisonM 13y ago
    I would suggest that tracking former employees or contractors that had security clearance and did not misbehave while working for the NSA would be a pretty low priority to keep track of - and fairly numerous. Particularly since any information they did have that was sensitive would generally lose value over time. I would expect that most of the NSA's resources directed at specific individuals are directed at individuals that they have reason to believe are up to no good, not just tracking low-risk folks for the sake of tracking them.
    - cpleppert 13y ago
      He wasn't an NSA employee he was a contractor. They don't even know how many contrators they have working for them.
wallawe 13y ago
This guy is not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. He also didn't make this decision overnight. If I had to guess, he planned this all very well with all considerations in mind . The fact that he noted his location at all is interesting in that he obviously doesn't want to get caught. So why bring it up? He could have just as easily left that detail anonymous. Makes me wonder if there's a tactic in mind that we might not have seen just yet.
- CaveTech 13y ago
  It's unlikely that he'd be able to hide anywhere in the world at this point without at least someone finding him. At least by saying where he is people will notice if he goes "missing".
  - codesuela 13y ago
    Also consider, if he hadn't shared his location he might've just disappeared as soon as he made an anonymous statement over the internet. This way he gets to talk to the press and establishes his location clearly.
grandalf 13y ago
China would turn Snowden over to US authorities only in exchange for the return of Chinese protesters given asylum in the US. The "China is an oppressive regime" meme makes up a lot of US propaganda and is used to justify all kinds of policies. So the US is put in the awkward position of not being able to engage in the usual diplomatic trade. Hong Kong is useful b/c it represents the future of Chinese society and is a concentration of wealth and influence. By letting Snowden stay in HK, China can appease its own population while also appearing to stand strong against the US government's demands. The best hope for the USG is that this blows over. Snowden seems fairly savvy about the media's role and if he's able to continue to shape the discussion there might actually be meaningful outcomes.
- rayiner 13y ago
  > The "China is an oppressive regime" meme It's not a meme. It's fact.
  - 286c8cb04bda 13y ago
    > It's not a meme. It's fact. Those are not mutually exclusive.
  - cloudwizard 13y ago
    This brings up the idea that Snowden fled the US to a place that he felt would be more free.
    - chatmasta 13y ago
      HK != China
      - mhurron 13y ago
        Hong Kong is China and has been since 1997.
        slygent 13y ago
macspoofing 13y ago
Here's a cynical interpretation: Hong Kong makes zero sense given that they are a) within Chinese sphere of influence and b) frequently extradites to the US. He's go other sensitive documents he may sell to the Chinese in exchange for money and sanctuary. So maybe that was the plan all along. Everyone focuses on the NSA wire-tapping scandal (which, honestly, I think everyone assumed was happening for years), and he gets a payout and some cover. Too cynical?
- resu_nimda 13y ago
  I don't think it makes sense. Like he said in his interview, he could have just sold the stuff he already leaked. Why then would he bother with the whole trouble of very publicly becoming America's Most Wanted? He sounded pretty sincere about doing this for the good of the American people. He claims he made a concerted effort to not reveal any information that could harm individuals, which appears to hold up. I would think (hope) he has some cards up his sleeve to protect himself, but at this point I think all the double-agent/working with China talk is wild conjecture.
  - macspoofing 13y ago
    Don't get me wrong, I have nothing to go on. Edward's disclosure was responsible, and certainly served a public good, and so far he should be lauded for it. It was a brave act. I understand him fleeing and seeking asylum in another country given that there is little chance he would get a 'fair' trial here (as has been shown by the way Bradley Manning and Aaron Swartz have been treated)... but of all places ... China??!? He's not an idiot, so he must have thought this through but it makes no sense.
    - slygent 13y ago
      HK != China. How many times should we do this?
      - macspoofing 13y ago
        China can veto any extradition. HK and US have a mutual extradition treaty for actions that are illegal in both countries. Presumably leaking state secrets is illegal in HK. Furthermore, HK is quite willing to extradite to US and does so on regular basis. So the question of why China (or HK if you prefer), remains.
tokenadult 13y ago
Have we seen a news report yet about how Snowden traveled to Hong Kong? His choice of destination may have been dictated by where he could fly on a nonstop airline flight from Hawaii, where he was last based. His travel documents, because he was contracting for the NSA, may already have had restrictions on which destinations he could fly to. (Such restrictions have been routine for NSA employees for more than a generation. Airlines check travel documents before you board a plane on an international flight, because the airline is responsible for returning you at no charge to you if you are denied entry for lack of proper travel documents at the border of your destination.) He may simply have had no better choice when he had opportunity to leave work and leave home.
- otoburb 13y ago
  >>Airlines check travel documents before you board a plane on an international flight, because the airline is responsible for returning you at no charge to you if you are denied entry for lack of proper travel documents at the border of your destination. This explains the sometimes seemingly draconian photo ID checks by airlines at the gate. Thanks for clearing this up -- I didn't realize that the return cost was borne by the carrier. Makes much more sense.
- wanderingstan 13y ago
  A few years ago I was cutting it close for a flight from New York to Maine. Everyone else had boarded when I got to the gate. When my wrinkled, self-printed boarding pass threw error noises, the agent told me just to go, "and run!" I breathed a sigh of relief when I was on the plane, but puzzled that a French tourist was in my seat. When we saw that both our tickets had the same seat we called over a flight attendant. "Wait, where are you flying?" she asked. "Portland, Maine?" With this comment I now fully understand the terror came to her face as she exclaimed, "This plane is going to Paris! Sir, you have to get off this plane immediately! Run, sir, run!" They shut the door behind me as I left. So yes, always double check your gate assignments at the airport, as they may have changed.
  - segmondy 13y ago
    you missed a free trip to paris! what an adventure that would have been. well, not if you can't leave the airport.
JamisonM 13y ago
I am baffled too, given that Ecuador offered Assange asylum wouldn't that be the most logical choice? I quick "vacation" down to Costa Rica and overland to Ecuador if you want to avoid raising suspicions and travel restrictions.
- jjs 13y ago
  > down to Costa Rica and overland to Ecuador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Gap
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    Most people cross the Gap by boat. It's 'overland' in the sense that you don't have to get on a plane.
rayiner 13y ago
> According to an interview with The Guardian, 29-year-old Edward Snowden, whose revelations have created a political uproar, has stashed himself in an unidentified luxury hotel in Hong Kong, a city he said he chose as the best place to hunker down given its “spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.” You mean the place that has no political freedom to speak of and exists under the PRC's thumb?
- pyre 13y ago
  HK has more political freedom than the rest of the PRC. I've heard of protests there that would be illegal anywhere else in the PRC. IIRC, you also need special travel papers to go to HK from the rest of the PRC.
chris_mahan 13y ago
Maybe because he knows what the NSA capabilities are in Hong Kong?
brianbreslin 13y ago
what would really be the best place to hideout? are there any countries where he would be free of us extradition threats given his high profile nature?
- cglace 13y ago
  My guess would be Venezuela or Cuba.
arbuge 13y ago
I'm also surprised he chose HK - it seems dicey to me. Off the cuff, there are other places that come to mind as being more promising spots. Having followed the Roman Polanski saga a few years back, for instance, I would have thought France would be a proven destination for anyone seeking to avoid US extradition.
chiph 13y ago
Note to journalists: Please stop using the Orwellian term "Rendition". The proper term for bringing a suspect back to face a judge is "Extradite"
- aidenn0 13y ago
  Actually Extradition is subset of Rendition (which involves any transfer between jurisdictions), which is not at all an orwellian term. It has only taken on its more negative connotations since the use of "Extraordinary Rendition." Had the term used for that behavior been "Extraordinary Extradition" then you would be complaining when journalists use the term "Extradition"
7952 13y ago
A more interesting question is why he made himself public at all.
alex_doom 13y ago
I've been doubting that he actually IN Hong Kong at the moment. He may have been there at some point and did the interview there, but I would have hoped he burned his location and is currently in another country.
tungwaiyip 13y ago
All the press and comments assume his ultimate goal is to avoid extradition, which has not been requested so far. I think he know the consequence of his action very well. He wants to expose the government surveillance program and draw public outrage. If US government do request for extradition, this will go through the court system in Hong Kong. Hopefully it will be a fairly transparent system and give him another chance to raise the awareness of this program. He might end up in jail, but this would fulfill his goal, that is to expose the surveillance program to the greatest extend possible.

130 points by nir 13y ago

This stuff proves to me that these programs have no value in stopping things that have not yet happened. Like the boston bombings and this guy, I sure there was a huge trail of evidence that didn't get identified in time to stop the actual act.

joonix 13y ago
Or that the programs are not being abused widely for surveillance outside of their stated purpose?
- revscat 13y ago
  Not worth it. The risk from totalitarian regimes is far greater than the risk from terrorism. Governments have more resources, by far. Even if we assume that PRISM is being used completely above-the-board the potential for abuse is still large enough to warrant reconsideration.

uvdiv 13y ago

Then again, if Snowden were hypothetically spying for the PRC, Hong Kong would be the most logical place to seek protection. In this scenario the PRC would credibly protect him from the US, and European liberal democracies would not.

Spearchucker 13y ago
If he was spying, then why Hong Kong, and why not Beijing directly?
- olalonde 13y ago
  Beijing woud look incredibly suspicious wouldn't it? It would be hard to buy the "strong freedom of speech tradition" story.
- uvdiv 13y ago
  Why not? They're both in the sovereign territory of China.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - uvdiv 13y ago
      The OP explains that the Hong Kong judicial system would handle an extradition, but Beijing would be able to veto it. "Lawyers said Monday that any extradition request would also need to go through the city’s legal system before Beijing could intercede, a process that would likely be drawn out."
- liotier 13y ago
  Protection, balanced with plausible deniability.
  - fab13n 13y ago
    Once you're protected, there's no more need for denying.
    - liotier 13y ago
      I mean deniability for the Chinese : Hong Kong is independent enough that they can claim powerlessness to their American partners, but they are the elephant in the room and can ensure that they keep actual control of the situation.
greghinch 13y ago
How do you make the jump from leaking the existence of a massive secret surveillance network within the US to him being a spy?? What reason would a spy have to share this info with the public?? Sounds like FUD to me...
- madaxe 13y ago
  This is the smear they're running already - have seen him referred to as a "Chinese spy" a couple of times already. I'm sure they'll get Greenwald on charges of being his cohort for China. Diplomatic incident ahoy!
dodyg 13y ago
Spying 101: don't go public.

mikegioia 13y ago

I would guess that he's not even in Hong Kong anymore, nor at the time of his interview.

_k 13y ago
I think he was in Hong Kong for the interview. If he wasn't, the government would use it against him in an attempt to make him look like a liar, an enemy of the state.

barredo 13y ago

Maybe he was ignorant, maybe he was spot on. Maybe his hypothetical extradition will cause a sort-of diplomatic "mess" between Beijing and Honk Kong, leaving him a limbo where neither HK nor China will grant him total asylum but wont extradite him either

latch 13y ago
There are two areas where SAR have little independence: defense and foreign affairs. Hong Kong will have its own money, postal service, justice, environment ministry, police, ....but it doesn't have a military and its foreign affairs tends to be limited to economic matters.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

kghose 13y ago

Who is funding him?

junto 13y ago
He earned $200,000 a year. Maybe he has some savings.
- kghose 13y ago
  To me, the real story is possibly how the government over pays contractors. The other real story is not that the government does this, it is that the government did not tell us it did this. THAT makes it underhand. If the government came out and said, look we are storing who calls whom and asking telecos to store that information and, with judicial oversight, we will access that information, and we had a debate about it, that would be the proper way. The government is taking the course "It is better to ask forgiveness than permission". Obama is going to take the rap for this, and I therefore wonder at the timing. I think it is important to realize two things 1. Obama continued the Bush era policies 2. Obama continued the Bush era policies Either that is the ONLY way security can be done, or there is some powerful faction within the bureaucracy which has gotten used to working in the shadows. I think that there is some bunch of bureaucrats who have gotten too used to having information at hand. I think we as a community need to keep using the regular methods offered to us via democracy (like posting on this online forum) to express our wish that a) We be told what the government is doing b) Express our displeasure at the direction the style of governance is going
  - n3rdy 13y ago
    > To me, the real story is possibly how the government over pays contractors. That's the real story to you? An entity that prints its own money (and uses it to spy on everyone), paying too much for contractors?
  - trotsky 13y ago
    There is so much demand in maryland for IT that has a clearance that it bids up the price of anyone reasonably competetant.

kombine 13y ago

So why didn't he go to Iceland in the first place? And would Hong Kong let him out if he decides to leave right now, before the US issued any warrant?

tracker1 13y ago
The cover was medical tourism... HK is known for it, Iceland isn't... Also HK is currently in a state of flux in terms of it's asylum process... So he can stay while they even sort out the process of applying/approval etc... it's rather brilliant.

uvdiv 13y ago

This is contradicted somewhat by a different source. This one says Hong Kong is a very good place to seek asylum right now, because there is a moratorium on deporting asylum-seekers: But there is at least one reason it could be incredibly shrewd: Hong Kong's asylum system is currently stuck in a state of limbo that could allow Snowden to exploit a loophole and buy some valuable time. Simon Young, director of the Centre for Comparative and Public Law at the University of Hong Kong, told GlobalPost that a decision delivered by Hong Kong's High Court in March of this year required the government to create a new procedure for reviewing asylum applications. Until the government does this, he said, asylum seekers are allowed to stay in Hong Kong indefinitely. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/130610/why-edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition-asylum http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific...

oinksoft 13y ago
Brilliant. It's sad it lends itself so easily to spin, "The Chinese Turned Him!" I expect that is what Americans will be told to believe.
- randall 13y ago
  But i mean it's curious he did this right as the Chinese PM was visiting Obama, no?
  - IAmAI343 13y ago
    No is not. To you maybe, but not to me. It just looks like a coincidence and that is like I will take it until further evidence emerges. Otherwise we just look like the religious morons whom claim that their religious text is the correct one because it predicted a historical event somewhere in the last two thousand years.
  - fianchetto 13y ago
    Very curious.
- einhverfr 13y ago

joeco 13y ago

Too many batman movies

tomelders 13y ago

> Hong Kong is the worst place in the world for any person to avoid extradition, with the possible exception of the United Kingdom I'm British, and this both saddens and angers me. It's time for a change.

kombine 13y ago
I wouldn't worry too much about it, it is all politics and all selective. A lot of Russians fled to the UK to elude justice in Russia. Whether they are political refugees or indeed committed crimes back home is another matter, but London is certainly a safe harbour for many of them.
- pekk 13y ago
  For which crime is polonium poisoning a legal sentence? Because if it's not a legal sentence, then it is not a matter of eluding "justice".
  - kombine 13y ago
    That is just one example, others are Berezovsky, Chichvarkin, Akhmed Zakayev to name the few. You should know who Berezovsky is, Chichvarkin created a retail chain for mobile electronics who had his business expropriated by some high ranking cops and Zakayev is a former Chechen rebel. This is what I can bring on top of my head, but I'm sure there are a lot more.
    - dreamfactory 13y ago
      Berezovsky is also dead
  - madaxe 13y ago
    We have two justice systems in the UK, one for you and me, one for people with more money than god.
notahacker 13y ago
I'm sceptical about the truth of that claim. For a start, the UK (along with other European countries) has a blanket ban on extraditing anyone that might face capital charges; a detail many countries with extradition treaties and capital punishment systems of their own are unlikely to care too much about. Secondly, the UK government can, and in the last 12 months has vetoed extradition of a high-profile suspect to the US, largely because there was public outcry over the issue.

AhtiK 13y ago

Isn't a luxury hotel the worst place to hide? I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room. Or is this just a 48h maneuver to clear up the political situation and then if needed move to one of the embassies in HK that is more supportive?

JackpotDen 13y ago
>Isn't a luxury hotel the worst place to hide? I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room. Depends if you think people want to kill you
EthanHeilman 13y ago
>I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of the room. All those cameras and employees become a protection. Remember when Israel assassinated that arms trafficker in a luxury hotel and all the video footage was released to the internet. It blew ~10+ operatives cover and caused a major diplomatic row about the fake passports used. If the US took action at the hotel the cost in terms of US covert operatives in China blown would be in 10-100s of millions of dollars in training and recruitment. If the US used a third party they would expose that third party to Chinese intelligence. Not including the media firestorm such an action would cause. All security is about raising the cost to the attacker, he has raised it significantly but the US still act if Obama so choose. From the US perspective the damage is done, why bring more negative PR at such a high cost?

JonnieCache 13y ago

Maybe he knows something we don't? Just a guess.

_k 13y ago

He might have an insurance policy. After all, he had access to other data so if they lock him up, they risk problems bigger than they could ever imagine. He may have written a program that releases the information on a certain date. Or someone else has a backup and knows what to do with it. Either that or he's no longer in Hong Kong, sort of like what McAfee did, tell everyone where he's at when he's really no longer there. So when Snowden tells the CIA their office is across the street, it's no more than a tactic to mislead the CIA. Either that, or he hasn't thought this through at all and I find that hard to believe.

jckt 13y ago
I find it hard to believe that he can be anywhere so easily. The NSA isn't omniscient, but certainly it keeps close tabs on people that work with/for them?
- JamisonM 13y ago
  I would suggest that tracking former employees or contractors that had security clearance and did not misbehave while working for the NSA would be a pretty low priority to keep track of - and fairly numerous. Particularly since any information they did have that was sensitive would generally lose value over time. I would expect that most of the NSA's resources directed at specific individuals are directed at individuals that they have reason to believe are up to no good, not just tracking low-risk folks for the sake of tracking them.
  - cpleppert 13y ago
    He wasn't an NSA employee he was a contractor. They don't even know how many contrators they have working for them.

wallawe 13y ago

This guy is not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. He also didn't make this decision overnight. If I had to guess, he planned this all very well with all considerations in mind . The fact that he noted his location at all is interesting in that he obviously doesn't want to get caught. So why bring it up? He could have just as easily left that detail anonymous. Makes me wonder if there's a tactic in mind that we might not have seen just yet.

CaveTech 13y ago
It's unlikely that he'd be able to hide anywhere in the world at this point without at least someone finding him. At least by saying where he is people will notice if he goes "missing".
- codesuela 13y ago
  Also consider, if he hadn't shared his location he might've just disappeared as soon as he made an anonymous statement over the internet. This way he gets to talk to the press and establishes his location clearly.

grandalf 13y ago

China would turn Snowden over to US authorities only in exchange for the return of Chinese protesters given asylum in the US. The "China is an oppressive regime" meme makes up a lot of US propaganda and is used to justify all kinds of policies. So the US is put in the awkward position of not being able to engage in the usual diplomatic trade. Hong Kong is useful b/c it represents the future of Chinese society and is a concentration of wealth and influence. By letting Snowden stay in HK, China can appease its own population while also appearing to stand strong against the US government's demands. The best hope for the USG is that this blows over. Snowden seems fairly savvy about the media's role and if he's able to continue to shape the discussion there might actually be meaningful outcomes.

rayiner 13y ago
> The "China is an oppressive regime" meme It's not a meme. It's fact.
- 286c8cb04bda 13y ago
  > It's not a meme. It's fact. Those are not mutually exclusive.
- cloudwizard 13y ago
  This brings up the idea that Snowden fled the US to a place that he felt would be more free.
  - chatmasta 13y ago
    HK != China
    - mhurron 13y ago
      Hong Kong is China and has been since 1997.
      - slygent 13y ago

macspoofing 13y ago

Here's a cynical interpretation: Hong Kong makes zero sense given that they are a) within Chinese sphere of influence and b) frequently extradites to the US. He's go other sensitive documents he may sell to the Chinese in exchange for money and sanctuary. So maybe that was the plan all along. Everyone focuses on the NSA wire-tapping scandal (which, honestly, I think everyone assumed was happening for years), and he gets a payout and some cover. Too cynical?

resu_nimda 13y ago
I don't think it makes sense. Like he said in his interview, he could have just sold the stuff he already leaked. Why then would he bother with the whole trouble of very publicly becoming America's Most Wanted? He sounded pretty sincere about doing this for the good of the American people. He claims he made a concerted effort to not reveal any information that could harm individuals, which appears to hold up. I would think (hope) he has some cards up his sleeve to protect himself, but at this point I think all the double-agent/working with China talk is wild conjecture.
- macspoofing 13y ago
  Don't get me wrong, I have nothing to go on. Edward's disclosure was responsible, and certainly served a public good, and so far he should be lauded for it. It was a brave act. I understand him fleeing and seeking asylum in another country given that there is little chance he would get a 'fair' trial here (as has been shown by the way Bradley Manning and Aaron Swartz have been treated)... but of all places ... China??!? He's not an idiot, so he must have thought this through but it makes no sense.
  - slygent 13y ago
    HK != China. How many times should we do this?
    - macspoofing 13y ago
      China can veto any extradition. HK and US have a mutual extradition treaty for actions that are illegal in both countries. Presumably leaking state secrets is illegal in HK. Furthermore, HK is quite willing to extradite to US and does so on regular basis. So the question of why China (or HK if you prefer), remains.

tokenadult 13y ago

Have we seen a news report yet about how Snowden traveled to Hong Kong? His choice of destination may have been dictated by where he could fly on a nonstop airline flight from Hawaii, where he was last based. His travel documents, because he was contracting for the NSA, may already have had restrictions on which destinations he could fly to. (Such restrictions have been routine for NSA employees for more than a generation. Airlines check travel documents before you board a plane on an international flight, because the airline is responsible for returning you at no charge to you if you are denied entry for lack of proper travel documents at the border of your destination.) He may simply have had no better choice when he had opportunity to leave work and leave home.

otoburb 13y ago
>>Airlines check travel documents before you board a plane on an international flight, because the airline is responsible for returning you at no charge to you if you are denied entry for lack of proper travel documents at the border of your destination. This explains the sometimes seemingly draconian photo ID checks by airlines at the gate. Thanks for clearing this up -- I didn't realize that the return cost was borne by the carrier. Makes much more sense.
wanderingstan 13y ago
A few years ago I was cutting it close for a flight from New York to Maine. Everyone else had boarded when I got to the gate. When my wrinkled, self-printed boarding pass threw error noises, the agent told me just to go, "and run!" I breathed a sigh of relief when I was on the plane, but puzzled that a French tourist was in my seat. When we saw that both our tickets had the same seat we called over a flight attendant. "Wait, where are you flying?" she asked. "Portland, Maine?" With this comment I now fully understand the terror came to her face as she exclaimed, "This plane is going to Paris! Sir, you have to get off this plane immediately! Run, sir, run!" They shut the door behind me as I left. So yes, always double check your gate assignments at the airport, as they may have changed.
- segmondy 13y ago
  you missed a free trip to paris! what an adventure that would have been. well, not if you can't leave the airport.

JamisonM 13y ago

I am baffled too, given that Ecuador offered Assange asylum wouldn't that be the most logical choice? I quick "vacation" down to Costa Rica and overland to Ecuador if you want to avoid raising suspicions and travel restrictions.

jjs 13y ago
> down to Costa Rica and overland to Ecuador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Gap
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  Most people cross the Gap by boat. It's 'overland' in the sense that you don't have to get on a plane.

rayiner 13y ago

> According to an interview with The Guardian, 29-year-old Edward Snowden, whose revelations have created a political uproar, has stashed himself in an unidentified luxury hotel in Hong Kong, a city he said he chose as the best place to hunker down given its “spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.” You mean the place that has no political freedom to speak of and exists under the PRC's thumb?

pyre 13y ago
HK has more political freedom than the rest of the PRC. I've heard of protests there that would be illegal anywhere else in the PRC. IIRC, you also need special travel papers to go to HK from the rest of the PRC.

chris_mahan 13y ago

Maybe because he knows what the NSA capabilities are in Hong Kong?

brianbreslin 13y ago

what would really be the best place to hideout? are there any countries where he would be free of us extradition threats given his high profile nature?

cglace 13y ago
My guess would be Venezuela or Cuba.

arbuge 13y ago

I'm also surprised he chose HK - it seems dicey to me. Off the cuff, there are other places that come to mind as being more promising spots. Having followed the Roman Polanski saga a few years back, for instance, I would have thought France would be a proven destination for anyone seeking to avoid US extradition.

chiph 13y ago

Note to journalists: Please stop using the Orwellian term "Rendition". The proper term for bringing a suspect back to face a judge is "Extradite"

aidenn0 13y ago
Actually Extradition is subset of Rendition (which involves any transfer between jurisdictions), which is not at all an orwellian term. It has only taken on its more negative connotations since the use of "Extraordinary Rendition." Had the term used for that behavior been "Extraordinary Extradition" then you would be complaining when journalists use the term "Extradition"

7952 13y ago

A more interesting question is why he made himself public at all.

alex_doom 13y ago

I've been doubting that he actually IN Hong Kong at the moment. He may have been there at some point and did the interview there, but I would have hoped he burned his location and is currently in another country.

tungwaiyip 13y ago

All the press and comments assume his ultimate goal is to avoid extradition, which has not been requested so far. I think he know the consequence of his action very well. He wants to expose the government surveillance program and draw public outrage. If US government do request for extradition, this will go through the court system in Hong Kong. Hopefully it will be a fairly transparent system and give him another chance to raise the awareness of this program. He might end up in jail, but this would fulfill his goal, that is to expose the surveillance program to the greatest extend possible.