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Most communities have a preexisting culture, and you are not a good fit for all of them. But demanding that a culture change to be more palatable for you is the

Most communities have a preexisting culture, and you are not a good fit for all of them. But demanding that a culture change to be more palatable for you is the height of arrogance. I grew up in a culture where people of colour were not welcome. Others fought and actually died so that I could write about Ruby and programming and have people include me or argue with me on the basis of my ideas and not my skin colour. In my own lifetime, I have witnesses the exact same struggle over sexual orientation. If giving one's life to change the world in this manner is "the height of arrogance," I welcome it. http://members.shaw.ca/cartermyths/Pics/jamesmeredith.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/cartermyths/Pics/jamesmeredith.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbbcjn4d1cE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbbcjn4d1cE

galactus 18y ago
Well said
yummyfajitas 18y ago
As I already clarified, I'm not defending active discrimination. I'm simply claiming you need a stronger argument than "As an X, I'm offended, so the world should change." Acting like a rock star != discrimination against women. Women may disproportionately dislike geeks acting like rock stars, but that doesn't make it discrimination. It is simply wrong to compare actively harming a group of people (segregation) to a group of people disproportionately disliking a certain culture.
- raganwald 18y ago
  I don't know any rock stars. Is objectifying women a necessary component of acting like a rock star? When someone is described as a "Rock Star" developer, does this mean that soft-core porn is an inevitable metaphor for their work? I don't know how to debate whether acting like a rock star is discriminatory against women, because I don't know what "acting like a rock star" means. I do know that a certain presentation offended a non-trivial number of people and did so in a manner that was entirely unrelated to its technical content. Asking that this sort of thing be avoided is rather specific and says nothing about rock stars or any random thing that may irk any random person. Why don't we discuss the specific incident rather that (a) trying to generalize it, and then (b) disputing the argument on the basis of an invalid generalization?
  - yummyfajitas 18y ago
    I'm using "rock star behavior" to describe the macho culture found in the RoR community. Lets talk about the specific incident. Some people were offended by a joke. The joke did not say that women were unwelcome or say anything about women specifically. It did not say or do anything to negatively affect women. Women may have disproportionately disliked the joke and the culture which it exemplifies. That's all. That's simply a complaint that "I and people like me don't like this, therefore the world should change." I believe my generalization is fair, certainly more fair than your comparison to active legal discrimination.
    - raganwald 18y ago
      Lets talk about the specific incident. Some people were offended by a joke. The joke did not say that women were unwelcome or say anything about women specifically. It did not say or do anything to negatively affect women... Women may have disproportionately disliked the joke and the culture which it exemplifies. That's all. That's simply a complaint that "I and people like me don't like this, therefore the world should change." I believe my generalization is fair, certainly more fair than your comparison to active legal discrimination. You know, your statement pretty much sums up your perspective on the issue and quite frankly, I see no reason to dissect it. I think there is enough in this thread for people to read what you have just written and decide for themselves what to think of your point of view.
  - menloparkbum 18y ago
    It's not rock star behavior. It's frat boy behavior. But it's the information systems management frat that can only get six women to come to the party. And the guys blow it with the only six who show up.

galactus 18y ago

Well said

yummyfajitas 18y ago

As I already clarified, I'm not defending active discrimination. I'm simply claiming you need a stronger argument than "As an X, I'm offended, so the world should change." Acting like a rock star != discrimination against women. Women may disproportionately dislike geeks acting like rock stars, but that doesn't make it discrimination. It is simply wrong to compare actively harming a group of people (segregation) to a group of people disproportionately disliking a certain culture.

raganwald 18y ago
I don't know any rock stars. Is objectifying women a necessary component of acting like a rock star? When someone is described as a "Rock Star" developer, does this mean that soft-core porn is an inevitable metaphor for their work? I don't know how to debate whether acting like a rock star is discriminatory against women, because I don't know what "acting like a rock star" means. I do know that a certain presentation offended a non-trivial number of people and did so in a manner that was entirely unrelated to its technical content. Asking that this sort of thing be avoided is rather specific and says nothing about rock stars or any random thing that may irk any random person. Why don't we discuss the specific incident rather that (a) trying to generalize it, and then (b) disputing the argument on the basis of an invalid generalization?
- yummyfajitas 18y ago
  I'm using "rock star behavior" to describe the macho culture found in the RoR community. Lets talk about the specific incident. Some people were offended by a joke. The joke did not say that women were unwelcome or say anything about women specifically. It did not say or do anything to negatively affect women. Women may have disproportionately disliked the joke and the culture which it exemplifies. That's all. That's simply a complaint that "I and people like me don't like this, therefore the world should change." I believe my generalization is fair, certainly more fair than your comparison to active legal discrimination.
  - raganwald 18y ago
    Lets talk about the specific incident. Some people were offended by a joke. The joke did not say that women were unwelcome or say anything about women specifically. It did not say or do anything to negatively affect women... Women may have disproportionately disliked the joke and the culture which it exemplifies. That's all. That's simply a complaint that "I and people like me don't like this, therefore the world should change." I believe my generalization is fair, certainly more fair than your comparison to active legal discrimination. You know, your statement pretty much sums up your perspective on the issue and quite frankly, I see no reason to dissect it. I think there is enough in this thread for people to read what you have just written and decide for themselves what to think of your point of view.
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  It's not rock star behavior. It's frat boy behavior. But it's the information systems management frat that can only get six women to come to the party. And the guys blow it with the only six who show up.