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"So what you seem to be saying, is, if you don't like it, "Fuck You." " Paraphrasing is a dangerous art. What I am really saying (vs your paraphrase claims I

"So what you seem to be saying, is, if you don't like it, "Fuck You." " Paraphrasing is a dangerous art. What I am really saying (vs your paraphrase claims I said) is "If you don't like X , that is fine. If you want to express your thoughts , that is fine. If you don't want to work on Rails, that is fine too. What is not fine is you expecting me (or anyone else) to think the way you do and say only things you like to hear just because of your feelings are offended. Being offended is your privilege. How much I should care about that is mine." That is a bit more nuanced than" Fuck You", but if you insist on twisting my words to hear it that way, <shrug>

raganwald 18y ago
As I indicated when closing my response, my opinion is that "Fuck You" captures a certain something about the Rails Culture's response to many things, this one included. What is there about "Fuck You" that you don't like? Is it that you would prefer to say the same thing more politely?
- axod 18y ago
  You could argue the same about anything - For example if you don't like the fact new Macbooks don't have firewire, Apples response could be paraphrased to "fuck you". You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it.
  - raganwald 18y ago
    You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it. The salient difference to me is that saying "Fuck You" about something technical--like composite primary keys--is very different than saying "Fuck You" about someone's comfort level in my community. I personally applaud Rails being opinionated about the former but deplore persons having the same opinionated approach to the latter circumstance.
    - mattmcknight 18y ago
      I deplore speaking in generalities about "the community", especially in cases where there is an obvious disunity.
      - raganwald 18y ago
        edited. thank you.
- plinkplonk 18y ago
  "my opinion is that "Fuck You" captures a certain something about the Rails Culture's response to many things, this one included." Well Ok but "Fuck you " wasn't what I said. If you were talking about DHH's old slide (or something like that ) that's fine. "What is there about "Fuck You" that you don't like? " I don't have a like or dislike for "Fuck you". Sometimes the phrase is appropriate, sometimes not. " Is it that you would prefer to say the same thing more politely?" No. If I want to say "Fuck You" I'll probably say "Fuck You" (or equivalent). Again no particular like or dislike for one way over another. When you said "so what you seem to be saying, is, .. "Fuck You" " I assumed you were paraphrasing what I said. And since that was not what I said, I thought it might help to clarify. That said, I can't help it if you collapse all arguments you don't like into "Fuck You".
  - raganwald 18y ago
    I can't help it if you collapse all arguments you don't like into "Fuck You". Checking my history on HN, I find yours is the only argument that I have summarized as "Fuck You." Let me know if you find another I have forgotten. EDIT: In the mean time, no you didn't say those words. I heard them. I suggest that others heard those words when reviewing the various non-pologies flying around the blogosphere over this tempest-in-a-teapot. As you (and Martin Fowler) put it, it's entirely up to you whether you care about the feelings of the people who perceive themselves as unwelcome or marginalized or uncomfortable within the Rails Community. I'm not saying you're a bad person for putting forth your opinion.
    - plinkplonk 18y ago
      "Checking my history on HN, I find yours is the only argument that I have summarized as "Fuck You." Let me know if you find another I have forgotten." heh! (a) what you did historically is of no relevance to what you are doing now (b)even if true, that still doesn't make your collapsing my argument into "Fuck You" correct paraphrasing. I made it clear in the original argument and then again in response to your (inaccurate imo), paraphrase that I was saying something other than "Fuck You!". What I said was "If you don't like X , that is fine. If you want to express your thoughts , that is fine. If you don't want to work on Rails, that is fine too. What is not fine is you expecting me (or anyone else) to think the way you do and say only things you like to hear just because of your feelings are offended. Being offended is your privilege. How much I should care about that is mine." If you are still hearing that as "Fuck You", it may be because you choose to collapse it to "Fuck You I can't help it. " It's just too bad. EDIT (responding to raganwald's edit where he said) "In the mean time, no you didn't say those words. I heard them" yes that is what I thought as well. My suggestion is that you "check your hearing" because "Fuck you" is not what I said. " I suggest that others heard those words when reviewing the various non-pologies flying around the blogosphere over this tempest-in-a-teapot." Yes I never refuted that. My point is that DHH doesn't necessarily care about what other people "hear". When what people "hear" is completely disconnected form what was said, I don't care either. "As you (and Martin Fowler) put it, it's entirely up to you whether you care about the feelings of the people who perceive themselves as unwelcome or marginalized or uncomfortable within the Rails Community." Exactly. Id' rather focus on writing code and making my chosen framework or language better for my purposes, than worry too much about what every possible person "out there", "hears". Especially if I don't set out to "build a community" and am just sharing some code I found useful. "I'm not saying you're a bad person for putting forth your opinion." I didn't "hear" it that way ;-) And even if you do say so, it doesn't make me a bad person. So it is quite all right.

raganwald 18y ago

As I indicated when closing my response, my opinion is that "Fuck You" captures a certain something about the Rails Culture's response to many things, this one included. What is there about "Fuck You" that you don't like? Is it that you would prefer to say the same thing more politely?

axod 18y ago
You could argue the same about anything - For example if you don't like the fact new Macbooks don't have firewire, Apples response could be paraphrased to "fuck you". You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it.
- raganwald 18y ago
  You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it. The salient difference to me is that saying "Fuck You" about something technical--like composite primary keys--is very different than saying "Fuck You" about someone's comfort level in my community. I personally applaud Rails being opinionated about the former but deplore persons having the same opinionated approach to the latter circumstance.
  - mattmcknight 18y ago
    I deplore speaking in generalities about "the community", especially in cases where there is an obvious disunity.
    - raganwald 18y ago
      edited. thank you.
plinkplonk 18y ago
"my opinion is that "Fuck You" captures a certain something about the Rails Culture's response to many things, this one included." Well Ok but "Fuck you " wasn't what I said. If you were talking about DHH's old slide (or something like that ) that's fine. "What is there about "Fuck You" that you don't like? " I don't have a like or dislike for "Fuck you". Sometimes the phrase is appropriate, sometimes not. " Is it that you would prefer to say the same thing more politely?" No. If I want to say "Fuck You" I'll probably say "Fuck You" (or equivalent). Again no particular like or dislike for one way over another. When you said "so what you seem to be saying, is, .. "Fuck You" " I assumed you were paraphrasing what I said. And since that was not what I said, I thought it might help to clarify. That said, I can't help it if you collapse all arguments you don't like into "Fuck You".
- raganwald 18y ago
  I can't help it if you collapse all arguments you don't like into "Fuck You". Checking my history on HN, I find yours is the only argument that I have summarized as "Fuck You." Let me know if you find another I have forgotten. EDIT: In the mean time, no you didn't say those words. I heard them. I suggest that others heard those words when reviewing the various non-pologies flying around the blogosphere over this tempest-in-a-teapot. As you (and Martin Fowler) put it, it's entirely up to you whether you care about the feelings of the people who perceive themselves as unwelcome or marginalized or uncomfortable within the Rails Community. I'm not saying you're a bad person for putting forth your opinion.
  - plinkplonk 18y ago
    "Checking my history on HN, I find yours is the only argument that I have summarized as "Fuck You." Let me know if you find another I have forgotten." heh! (a) what you did historically is of no relevance to what you are doing now (b)even if true, that still doesn't make your collapsing my argument into "Fuck You" correct paraphrasing. I made it clear in the original argument and then again in response to your (inaccurate imo), paraphrase that I was saying something other than "Fuck You!". What I said was "If you don't like X , that is fine. If you want to express your thoughts , that is fine. If you don't want to work on Rails, that is fine too. What is not fine is you expecting me (or anyone else) to think the way you do and say only things you like to hear just because of your feelings are offended. Being offended is your privilege. How much I should care about that is mine." If you are still hearing that as "Fuck You", it may be because you choose to collapse it to "Fuck You I can't help it. " It's just too bad. EDIT (responding to raganwald's edit where he said) "In the mean time, no you didn't say those words. I heard them" yes that is what I thought as well. My suggestion is that you "check your hearing" because "Fuck you" is not what I said. " I suggest that others heard those words when reviewing the various non-pologies flying around the blogosphere over this tempest-in-a-teapot." Yes I never refuted that. My point is that DHH doesn't necessarily care about what other people "hear". When what people "hear" is completely disconnected form what was said, I don't care either. "As you (and Martin Fowler) put it, it's entirely up to you whether you care about the feelings of the people who perceive themselves as unwelcome or marginalized or uncomfortable within the Rails Community." Exactly. Id' rather focus on writing code and making my chosen framework or language better for my purposes, than worry too much about what every possible person "out there", "hears". Especially if I don't set out to "build a community" and am just sharing some code I found useful. "I'm not saying you're a bad person for putting forth your opinion." I didn't "hear" it that way ;-) And even if you do say so, it doesn't make me a bad person. So it is quite all right.