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Absolutely. I remember how in 2001 when the US as the first country ever invoked article 5 of the NATO treaty, within hours all NATO members had followed throug

by flexie 13y ago

Absolutely. I remember how in 2001 when the US as the first country ever invoked article 5 of the NATO treaty, within hours all NATO members had followed through with support. And the minute of silence that was held all over Europe for the 9/11 victims. Then we joined them in two wars. We bought their cell phones, their operating systems and productivity suites, their internet adds, hosting and email services and movies and music. We even let some of their largest corporations get away without paying taxes on the money they made in our countries. We may not be citizens of their country but we are allies, not terrorists. When it comes to the bad things groups of people, such as governments, do to individuals, whether it's killing, torture, imprisonment with or without trial, surveillance or any other of the misdeeds that seems to have returned from the dark ages we deserve the same protection as American citizens.

sneak 13y ago
> When it comes to the bad things groups of people, such as governments, do to individuals, whether it's killing, torture, imprisonment with or without trial, surveillance or any other of the misdeeds that seems to have returned from the dark ages we deserve the same protection as American citizens. Despite the actions and statements of our government, most of us Americans feel the same way. (It's just that the shitty entitled xenophobes are just so damn loud sometimes...) You'll note that in our declaration of independence, it states that the rights to life and liberty are the inalienable birthright of every man, endowed by his creator, before it says fuck-all about anyone's government.
softbuilder 13y ago
>We bought their cell phones To be fair, folks in the US bought a LOT of European cell phones first. :)
- sergiosgc 13y ago
  And to complete the circle (triangle?), nowadays we all but Korean/Taiwanese phones :-)
  - uchi 13y ago
    But not Chinese because lord knows they'll spy on us.
    - redrocket 13y ago
      Classic.
  - sergiosgc 13y ago
    s/but/buy &#! # keyboard autocorrect...
anvandare 13y ago
>allies No, we're vassals. The USA orders and we obey, whether it's supporting their military machine or handing over information, people, research, or economical advantages. It's a hegemony. >the misdeeds that seems to have returned from the dark ages You've been fed propaganda. The crimes have always been there. The USA has always supported tyranny, cruelty, and crimes against humanity if it served its best interests (like every other country, I might add.) >we deserve the same protection as American citizens If the government wants someone naked, chained, and tortured in some foreign place, it'll happen. No matter who it is. True? Maybe not (yet), but it's telling enough that it sounds plausible, no?
- youngerdryas 13y ago
  The poor helpless Europeans, laboring under the yoke of their North American oppressors. Exactly what method is being used to relieve you of your responsibility for your own country?
  - lrem 13y ago
    Um, well, the one-sideness of how everything is treated? An European boy charged with making a website aggravating an American corporation? Handcuff and to the plane (yep, that was stopped by a court, but still)! An American businessman charged with commanding the murder of an European chief of police? No, sorry, we won't hand you our citizen (search for the case of general Papała). Even if this is not stated in any treaties, it's simply the practice.
x3c 13y ago
Had to google what article 5 of NATO was: The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

by flexie 13y ago

sneak 13y ago

> When it comes to the bad things groups of people, such as governments, do to individuals, whether it's killing, torture, imprisonment with or without trial, surveillance or any other of the misdeeds that seems to have returned from the dark ages we deserve the same protection as American citizens. Despite the actions and statements of our government, most of us Americans feel the same way. (It's just that the shitty entitled xenophobes are just so damn loud sometimes...) You'll note that in our declaration of independence, it states that the rights to life and liberty are the inalienable birthright of every man, endowed by his creator, before it says fuck-all about anyone's government.

softbuilder 13y ago

>We bought their cell phones To be fair, folks in the US bought a LOT of European cell phones first. :)

sergiosgc 13y ago
And to complete the circle (triangle?), nowadays we all but Korean/Taiwanese phones :-)
- uchi 13y ago
  But not Chinese because lord knows they'll spy on us.
  - redrocket 13y ago
    Classic.
- sergiosgc 13y ago
  s/but/buy &#! # keyboard autocorrect...

anvandare 13y ago

>allies No, we're vassals. The USA orders and we obey, whether it's supporting their military machine or handing over information, people, research, or economical advantages. It's a hegemony. >the misdeeds that seems to have returned from the dark ages You've been fed propaganda. The crimes have always been there. The USA has always supported tyranny, cruelty, and crimes against humanity if it served its best interests (like every other country, I might add.) >we deserve the same protection as American citizens If the government wants someone naked, chained, and tortured in some foreign place, it'll happen. No matter who it is. True? Maybe not (yet), but it's telling enough that it sounds plausible, no?

youngerdryas 13y ago
The poor helpless Europeans, laboring under the yoke of their North American oppressors. Exactly what method is being used to relieve you of your responsibility for your own country?
- lrem 13y ago
  Um, well, the one-sideness of how everything is treated? An European boy charged with making a website aggravating an American corporation? Handcuff and to the plane (yep, that was stopped by a court, but still)! An American businessman charged with commanding the murder of an European chief of police? No, sorry, we won't hand you our citizen (search for the case of general Papała). Even if this is not stated in any treaties, it's simply the practice.

x3c 13y ago

Had to google what article 5 of NATO was: The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.