8 ms·

Treaty gives Hong Kong option to reject Snowden extradition to the US

108 points by gridscomputing 13y ago

bitserf 13y ago
I don't see a downside for Hong Kong/China in rejecting an extradition request. Cynically, it's leverage and they'll have the moral high ground in the eyes of the world.
- JDShu 13y ago
  Being in HK for the summer, I honestly don't get the impression that anybody here cares about this particular issue.
  - pyre 13y ago
    The extradition decision will be done at a high-level for someone like Snowden. Whether or not the common citizens of HK care about the NSA hoopla doesn't really factor into it.
    - potatolicious 13y ago
      It'll be done at a high level, but PR will be a large part of it. The US is a valued trading partner of both HK and China. One doesn't generally go about pissing off their major trading partners unless there's something in it for them. There are really only two things Snowden can give HK or China: - Further intelligence. This seems unlikely if his story is what he says it is. - A giant PR coup domestically, putting the Chinese government, for once, on the right side of a human rights/democracy/transparency issue. That second part depends largely on how much the general population can be made to care about the issue. The Chinese won't hang onto a highly wanted American criminal that the US federal government desperately wants tried, not unless they can extract something out of the deal.
      - buro9 13y ago
        That second one is a benefit not to PR to the general population, but as an underline to Chinese statements in arenas such as the UN which seek to defend their practises (censorship, monitoring) in the face of very hypocritical statements by the US. The cost of doing this is negligible, yet the value to them as a PR coup on a political level is quite high.
  - ximeng 13y ago
    Well it made the Apple Daily: http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/international/20130610/35074756/fbGoogle%E4%B8%BB%E5%8B%95%E4%BE%9B%E7%BE%8E%E6%83%85%E8%92%90 http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/internationa...
- nir 13y ago
  Anyone who follows China's foreign policy knows that it's entirely driven by economic interests (eg, supplying weapons to Sudan during the Darfur genocide, breaking the UN embargo). From a pure economic standpoint, the US government could easily make it more beneficial to give up Snowden then to keep him.
  - crdoconnor 13y ago
    It's not purely economic. China stands to gain in intelligence stakes by making HK a desirable destination for US defectors. Having a high profile example to point to will make convincing others easier.
uvdiv 13y ago
The article is confusing. More clearly: both Hong Kong and the PRC (mainland) can deny extraditions from HK to the US. Beijing, which gave its consent for Hong Kong to sign the agreement, also has a right of veto if it believes the surrender of a fugitive would harm the "defence, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy'' of the People's Republic of China. In short, the treaty makes Snowden's fate a matter of political expediency not just in Hong Kong but in Beijing. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-hong-kong-gamble http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-h...
- sfall 13y ago
  Hong Kong is special, while it is part of china it is also acts on it's own with permission from the mainland. That is why Beijing gets it's own vote in what happens with Hong Kong
quackerhacker 13y ago
Given Snowden's background in intel and the information exposed, I think he calculated his decision correctly. Even though other countries (like Iceland) are offering asylum, I really do believe Snowden choose a formidable country that opposes western views...anyone recall Hilary Clinton addressing China's firewall, or Google pulling out?
- einhverfr 13y ago
  Additionally consider this. The ball is now in the court of the US Government. They can ask for extradition or they can wait. If they ask for extradition, what is China's next move? The logical one is to approach Snowden and ask him to make a deal, to exchange classified information in exchange for asylum. That puts the ball back in Snowden's court and he has three options: 1. Let the US know he has had the offer and ask them to step down before he has to take it. 2. Take the Chinese up on the offer. 3. Reject the Chinese offer, turn himself in, and return to the US in shackles specifying he did not sell out his country. If he can manage to do that publicly, that might also be a great great gamble that might turn out in his favor. The more I think about it, the more I am impressed with his choice.
  - quackerhacker 13y ago
    The Guy Fawkes mask that anonymous uses illustrates what? - treason (hope that's not too cryptic) I strongly agree with you that I too am impressed with each calculated decision he has taken...even down to the press release. The press release is also key in his decision to reveal him self. By doing so, how suspicious would it be if he "committed suicide." An example of how the press can protect him, you need not look farther than Julian Assange. And even when it comes to the initial press release, the only reason I believe that it was revealed in the order that it did was for competition. He seeked the Guardian (in England), and compelled the Post (in the US) to publish. In media, it's all about being first, royalties, and copyrights. Check the link below. I'd have to say, his execution of his plan, was very well calculated. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853496
    - 13y ago
adamnemecek 13y ago
I wonder whether the HK government perceives him as an asset or liability.
- ihsw 13y ago
  Either way the USG will be working as hard as hell to make him a liability for everybody except the US.
bifrost 13y ago
Snowden is probably already a PRC citizen, he doesn't have much to worry about.
jenandre 13y ago
Sorry, but I don't buy this guy's story. Something is just incredibly fishy. I don't buy this guy's argument for going to Hong Kong, e.g. that has a history of free speech, and its supposed autonomy from the mainland -- even after all of these years, Chinese pressure prevents Taiwan from international recognition. You think they are just letting Hong Kong do its own thing? He seems intelligent and must be aware of this, especially having worked in the intelligence world. The Chinese firewall is the most renowned internet chokehold in the world. The Chinese are known for hacking Google to spy on their own citizens. I just have to think of it if I were in his situation. If I were a freedom-loving individual looking to seek asylum, I'd probably first look at countries that granted asylum in similar cases that weren't internationally renowned for suppressing freedom of speech. Assange has asylum with Ecuador, why not go there first? China is just such a weird choice for someone who is purportedly morally driven to his actions by privacy violations. Not only that, this situation has nothing but upsides for the Chinese. It looks great for them to expose another world power is spying on their own citizens (and weakens any diplomatic arguments the US has when pressuring them to open up free speech and the internet). It's also a nice thorn to retort after all of the recent hubbub about Chinese government hackers. If he wasn't an active spy in the traditional definition feeding the Chinese information, he is certainly an asset by circumstance -- why wouldn't they manipulate him to their benefit? Now, that's not saying the US did the right thing -- we kind of fucked ourselves here having PRISM in place first of all -- but I am not sure this guy is the lone ranger whistleblower hero is painting himself to be.
- bifrost 13y ago
  >Sorry, but I don't buy this guy's story. Something is just incredibly fishy. >I am not sure this guy is the lone ranger whistleblower hero is painting himself to be. That is exactly right. Its much too convenient. This guy was probably a PRC mole/sleeper. Who defects to a country that still executes dissidents?
  - sneak 13y ago
    At https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289 https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289 @scclemons writes: > In Dulles UAL lounge listening to 4 US intel officials saying loudly leaker & reporter on #NSA stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit
anonymous 13y ago
So that's where the Snowdens of yesteryear are.
- instakill 13y ago
  Correct, Yossarian
einhverfr 13y ago
He probably did his research, looked at court systems etc. He probably expects to spend some time fighting over extradition. Its not really a bad call (Hong Kong). The question is, where do you want to fight? What battlefield do you want to choose? I don't know. It is probably better than many other choices. One major problem with choosing Ecuador is that if Ecuador is involved in both Snowden and Assange there are potentially large problems for them. I don't doubt for a moment that Correa would love the fight, but I do doubt that it would last past one administration. He's the underdog. Wherever he chooses, he bears a huge level of risk. There is a lot to recommend HongKong. But in addition, the fact that it poses important options for resisting extradition provides another way of fighting. If the Obama Administration wants this to go quietly they do not want a long extradition fight showing up in papers followed by a long court trial.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  As a note (too late to edit) it is possible he could be gambling for example that if the US asks for extradition the Chinese will come asking for classified information or better yet, that the fear of the Chinese doing so would be enough to keep the US from asking for extradition.
_rush 13y ago
why everybody thinks he's realy in hongkong? at his place I'd say I'm in any place but real location.

108 points by gridscomputing 13y ago

I don't see a downside for Hong Kong/China in rejecting an extradition request. Cynically, it's leverage and they'll have the moral high ground in the eyes of the world.

JDShu 13y ago
Being in HK for the summer, I honestly don't get the impression that anybody here cares about this particular issue.
- pyre 13y ago
  The extradition decision will be done at a high-level for someone like Snowden. Whether or not the common citizens of HK care about the NSA hoopla doesn't really factor into it.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    It'll be done at a high level, but PR will be a large part of it. The US is a valued trading partner of both HK and China. One doesn't generally go about pissing off their major trading partners unless there's something in it for them. There are really only two things Snowden can give HK or China: - Further intelligence. This seems unlikely if his story is what he says it is. - A giant PR coup domestically, putting the Chinese government, for once, on the right side of a human rights/democracy/transparency issue. That second part depends largely on how much the general population can be made to care about the issue. The Chinese won't hang onto a highly wanted American criminal that the US federal government desperately wants tried, not unless they can extract something out of the deal.
    - buro9 13y ago
      That second one is a benefit not to PR to the general population, but as an underline to Chinese statements in arenas such as the UN which seek to defend their practises (censorship, monitoring) in the face of very hypocritical statements by the US. The cost of doing this is negligible, yet the value to them as a PR coup on a political level is quite high.
- ximeng 13y ago
  Well it made the Apple Daily: http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/international/20130610/35074756/fbGoogle%E4%B8%BB%E5%8B%95%E4%BE%9B%E7%BE%8E%E6%83%85%E8%92%90 http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/internationa...
nir 13y ago
Anyone who follows China's foreign policy knows that it's entirely driven by economic interests (eg, supplying weapons to Sudan during the Darfur genocide, breaking the UN embargo). From a pure economic standpoint, the US government could easily make it more beneficial to give up Snowden then to keep him.
- crdoconnor 13y ago
  It's not purely economic. China stands to gain in intelligence stakes by making HK a desirable destination for US defectors. Having a high profile example to point to will make convincing others easier.

uvdiv 13y ago

The article is confusing. More clearly: both Hong Kong and the PRC (mainland) can deny extraditions from HK to the US. Beijing, which gave its consent for Hong Kong to sign the agreement, also has a right of veto if it believes the surrender of a fugitive would harm the "defence, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy'' of the People's Republic of China. In short, the treaty makes Snowden's fate a matter of political expediency not just in Hong Kong but in Beijing. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-hong-kong-gamble http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-h...

sfall 13y ago
Hong Kong is special, while it is part of china it is also acts on it's own with permission from the mainland. That is why Beijing gets it's own vote in what happens with Hong Kong

quackerhacker 13y ago

Given Snowden's background in intel and the information exposed, I think he calculated his decision correctly. Even though other countries (like Iceland) are offering asylum, I really do believe Snowden choose a formidable country that opposes western views...anyone recall Hilary Clinton addressing China's firewall, or Google pulling out?

einhverfr 13y ago
Additionally consider this. The ball is now in the court of the US Government. They can ask for extradition or they can wait. If they ask for extradition, what is China's next move? The logical one is to approach Snowden and ask him to make a deal, to exchange classified information in exchange for asylum. That puts the ball back in Snowden's court and he has three options: 1. Let the US know he has had the offer and ask them to step down before he has to take it. 2. Take the Chinese up on the offer. 3. Reject the Chinese offer, turn himself in, and return to the US in shackles specifying he did not sell out his country. If he can manage to do that publicly, that might also be a great great gamble that might turn out in his favor. The more I think about it, the more I am impressed with his choice.
- quackerhacker 13y ago
  The Guy Fawkes mask that anonymous uses illustrates what? - treason (hope that's not too cryptic) I strongly agree with you that I too am impressed with each calculated decision he has taken...even down to the press release. The press release is also key in his decision to reveal him self. By doing so, how suspicious would it be if he "committed suicide." An example of how the press can protect him, you need not look farther than Julian Assange. And even when it comes to the initial press release, the only reason I believe that it was revealed in the order that it did was for competition. He seeked the Guardian (in England), and compelled the Post (in the US) to publish. In media, it's all about being first, royalties, and copyrights. Check the link below. I'd have to say, his execution of his plan, was very well calculated. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853496
  - 13y ago

adamnemecek 13y ago

I wonder whether the HK government perceives him as an asset or liability.

ihsw 13y ago
Either way the USG will be working as hard as hell to make him a liability for everybody except the US.

bifrost 13y ago

Snowden is probably already a PRC citizen, he doesn't have much to worry about.

jenandre 13y ago

Sorry, but I don't buy this guy's story. Something is just incredibly fishy. I don't buy this guy's argument for going to Hong Kong, e.g. that has a history of free speech, and its supposed autonomy from the mainland -- even after all of these years, Chinese pressure prevents Taiwan from international recognition. You think they are just letting Hong Kong do its own thing? He seems intelligent and must be aware of this, especially having worked in the intelligence world. The Chinese firewall is the most renowned internet chokehold in the world. The Chinese are known for hacking Google to spy on their own citizens. I just have to think of it if I were in his situation. If I were a freedom-loving individual looking to seek asylum, I'd probably first look at countries that granted asylum in similar cases that weren't internationally renowned for suppressing freedom of speech. Assange has asylum with Ecuador, why not go there first? China is just such a weird choice for someone who is purportedly morally driven to his actions by privacy violations. Not only that, this situation has nothing but upsides for the Chinese. It looks great for them to expose another world power is spying on their own citizens (and weakens any diplomatic arguments the US has when pressuring them to open up free speech and the internet). It's also a nice thorn to retort after all of the recent hubbub about Chinese government hackers. If he wasn't an active spy in the traditional definition feeding the Chinese information, he is certainly an asset by circumstance -- why wouldn't they manipulate him to their benefit? Now, that's not saying the US did the right thing -- we kind of fucked ourselves here having PRISM in place first of all -- but I am not sure this guy is the lone ranger whistleblower hero is painting himself to be.

bifrost 13y ago
>Sorry, but I don't buy this guy's story. Something is just incredibly fishy. >I am not sure this guy is the lone ranger whistleblower hero is painting himself to be. That is exactly right. Its much too convenient. This guy was probably a PRC mole/sleeper. Who defects to a country that still executes dissidents?
- sneak 13y ago
  At https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289 https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289 @scclemons writes: > In Dulles UAL lounge listening to 4 US intel officials saying loudly leaker & reporter on #NSA stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit

anonymous 13y ago

So that's where the Snowdens of yesteryear are.

instakill 13y ago
Correct, Yossarian

einhverfr 13y ago

He probably did his research, looked at court systems etc. He probably expects to spend some time fighting over extradition. Its not really a bad call (Hong Kong). The question is, where do you want to fight? What battlefield do you want to choose? I don't know. It is probably better than many other choices. One major problem with choosing Ecuador is that if Ecuador is involved in both Snowden and Assange there are potentially large problems for them. I don't doubt for a moment that Correa would love the fight, but I do doubt that it would last past one administration. He's the underdog. Wherever he chooses, he bears a huge level of risk. There is a lot to recommend HongKong. But in addition, the fact that it poses important options for resisting extradition provides another way of fighting. If the Obama Administration wants this to go quietly they do not want a long extradition fight showing up in papers followed by a long court trial.

einhverfr 13y ago
As a note (too late to edit) it is possible he could be gambling for example that if the US asks for extradition the Chinese will come asking for classified information or better yet, that the fear of the Chinese doing so would be enough to keep the US from asking for extradition.

_rush 13y ago

why everybody thinks he's realy in hongkong? at his place I'd say I'm in any place but real location.