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One biggie that the author left out of the piece: The US Gov continues to insist that they are not monitoring the data of US citizens because that would be unc

One biggie that the author left out of the piece: The US Gov continues to insist that they are not monitoring the data of US citizens because that would be unconstitutional without warrants. But that's a tacit admission that they are openly monitoring the data of non-US citizens. I think this is one of the most important revelations of this leak, the US Gov has made it clear that if you are a non US citizen using a web service based in the US your data is definitely under observation.

zainny 13y ago
As an Australian, that's what I found most interesting as well about all the commentary going on. From the perspective of the NSA it seems my data is fair game under any and all circumstances. Well fuck that. Google, Amazon, et al. - I'm out
- dsowers 13y ago
  Good luck. I don't see other countries innovating at even half the rate of the U.S. with tech stuff. Leaving the umbrella will be like turning out the lights. It gets boring and cold in the dark after a while.
  - ashray 13y ago
    That's possibly because of a few advantages that US companies had due to quicker exposure to leading edge technology. However, when privacy becomes a unique selling point that US corporations can no longer provide - suddenly the competition will see a reason to appear. I'm on the lookout for reasonably good Google apps alternatives, if they don't exist right now - this is a time that a solid market just got created. I'm sure someone out there will be interested in making it happen!
    - zainny 13y ago
      Agreed. I see this as being a catalyst for the creation of greater competition to the US internet incumbents. There will likely not be an immediate impact for Google et al. but there will be much longer term consequences I think.
  - honzzz 13y ago
    That might change... and not only for reasons related to privacy. I live in EU and I remember that about two or three years ago every geek's wet dream was to get to Silicon Valley and build a startup. But that seems to be changing. I don't have any research to back it up - it's just some anecdotal evidence but many people now seem to consider alternatives like London or Chile... mostly because they are afraid of software patents and want to stay out of US jurisdiction. These things are difficult to asses but there is a tipping point somewhere - once critical mass is achieved innovation can quickly move somewhere else. Fear of American government can help make it happen and I am sure that competitors are going to love playing that card.
    - Ziomislaw 13y ago
      same thing here, a friend recently refused work, because he would have to physically go to USA (he loves seeing the world) - money was waaaay above EU.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
a3n 13y ago
I don't expect non-Americans to be all that familiar with my country, and vice versa. But think about it. The NSA has been around since 1952. They now have N billions of dollars of black budget. The relevant Congressional oversight committees are prohibited from talking about what they learn. They are (supposedly) constitutionally prohibited from spying on Americans. If they aren't (or say the aren't) spying on Americans, then they're spying on y'all. Some of it, plus the rest of it, equals all of it. We're some of it. Venn says y'all are the rest of it.
- ritchiea 13y ago
  Well obviously many governments have spies. There's even a genre of entertainment constructed around spies. And generally in the spy narrative the spy is after guys from the other country, not his own. The revelation here is that if you are a non-American your data that you store via a company based in the US is available to the US government with virtually (maybe even literally?) no protections. And this isn't tin foil paranoia, the US Government just told you that in public discourse.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    > And this isn't tin foil paranoia, the US Government just told you that in public discourse. You know, if you had said that about anything else, it'd be a transparency win.
jacques_chester 13y ago
They'll be doing something like the old Echelon trick. US spy agencies can't spy on Americans, so they spy on Australians, Canadians and Britons. In return, Australians spy on Americans, Britons on Canadians etc etc. Then they swap intelligence and get to claim that "we didn't spy, it was given to us by our allies who are under no such regulations".
- einhverfr 13y ago
  There's still a major limit there. The issue of the Verizon and PRISM systems is that they probably involve the possibility at least of legal authority over the vendors. Court orders or possibilities of court orders.... If the NSA is spying on Australians clandestinely, then they don't have that authority and they are limited to what they can scavange. It would be far better if we were to a point where no courts would coerce cooperation of this sort, and the system you are describing is better than what we have. The problem is when the NSA gets a court to forcibly deputize an American business to spy on Australians, and that's a very, very different problem.
DannyBee 13y ago
I'm not entirely sure why you think a non-us citizen using a web service in the non-us is not similarly targeted? Either by other intelligence agencies, or even more likely, that the NSA shares these abilities with other friendly foreign governments (UK, NZ, AUS, etc) in order to ensure their tacit approval. Even in the world of intelligence, diplomacy matters. Secrecy only counts for so much. You can't keep the fact that you have a huge listening post in NZ secret, huge dishes don't look like they belong in cow pastures. Same with fiber optic cable. It's not like they can splice them without someone noticing. Instead, the way you accomplish this is by providing NZ what it wants while still retaining plausible deniability if things go south for them ("We had no idea the horrible NSA had secretly placed all this stuff here. We're completely outraged!")

zainny 13y ago

As an Australian, that's what I found most interesting as well about all the commentary going on. From the perspective of the NSA it seems my data is fair game under any and all circumstances. Well fuck that. Google, Amazon, et al. - I'm out

dsowers 13y ago
Good luck. I don't see other countries innovating at even half the rate of the U.S. with tech stuff. Leaving the umbrella will be like turning out the lights. It gets boring and cold in the dark after a while.
- ashray 13y ago
  That's possibly because of a few advantages that US companies had due to quicker exposure to leading edge technology. However, when privacy becomes a unique selling point that US corporations can no longer provide - suddenly the competition will see a reason to appear. I'm on the lookout for reasonably good Google apps alternatives, if they don't exist right now - this is a time that a solid market just got created. I'm sure someone out there will be interested in making it happen!
  - zainny 13y ago
    Agreed. I see this as being a catalyst for the creation of greater competition to the US internet incumbents. There will likely not be an immediate impact for Google et al. but there will be much longer term consequences I think.
- honzzz 13y ago
  That might change... and not only for reasons related to privacy. I live in EU and I remember that about two or three years ago every geek's wet dream was to get to Silicon Valley and build a startup. But that seems to be changing. I don't have any research to back it up - it's just some anecdotal evidence but many people now seem to consider alternatives like London or Chile... mostly because they are afraid of software patents and want to stay out of US jurisdiction. These things are difficult to asses but there is a tipping point somewhere - once critical mass is achieved innovation can quickly move somewhere else. Fear of American government can help make it happen and I am sure that competitors are going to love playing that card.
  - Ziomislaw 13y ago
    same thing here, a friend recently refused work, because he would have to physically go to USA (he loves seeing the world) - money was waaaay above EU.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

a3n 13y ago

I don't expect non-Americans to be all that familiar with my country, and vice versa. But think about it. The NSA has been around since 1952. They now have N billions of dollars of black budget. The relevant Congressional oversight committees are prohibited from talking about what they learn. They are (supposedly) constitutionally prohibited from spying on Americans. If they aren't (or say the aren't) spying on Americans, then they're spying on y'all. Some of it, plus the rest of it, equals all of it. We're some of it. Venn says y'all are the rest of it.

ritchiea 13y ago
Well obviously many governments have spies. There's even a genre of entertainment constructed around spies. And generally in the spy narrative the spy is after guys from the other country, not his own. The revelation here is that if you are a non-American your data that you store via a company based in the US is available to the US government with virtually (maybe even literally?) no protections. And this isn't tin foil paranoia, the US Government just told you that in public discourse.
- saraid216 13y ago
  > And this isn't tin foil paranoia, the US Government just told you that in public discourse. You know, if you had said that about anything else, it'd be a transparency win.

jacques_chester 13y ago

They'll be doing something like the old Echelon trick. US spy agencies can't spy on Americans, so they spy on Australians, Canadians and Britons. In return, Australians spy on Americans, Britons on Canadians etc etc. Then they swap intelligence and get to claim that "we didn't spy, it was given to us by our allies who are under no such regulations".

einhverfr 13y ago
There's still a major limit there. The issue of the Verizon and PRISM systems is that they probably involve the possibility at least of legal authority over the vendors. Court orders or possibilities of court orders.... If the NSA is spying on Australians clandestinely, then they don't have that authority and they are limited to what they can scavange. It would be far better if we were to a point where no courts would coerce cooperation of this sort, and the system you are describing is better than what we have. The problem is when the NSA gets a court to forcibly deputize an American business to spy on Australians, and that's a very, very different problem.

DannyBee 13y ago

I'm not entirely sure why you think a non-us citizen using a web service in the non-us is not similarly targeted? Either by other intelligence agencies, or even more likely, that the NSA shares these abilities with other friendly foreign governments (UK, NZ, AUS, etc) in order to ensure their tacit approval. Even in the world of intelligence, diplomacy matters. Secrecy only counts for so much. You can't keep the fact that you have a huge listening post in NZ secret, huge dishes don't look like they belong in cow pastures. Same with fiber optic cable. It's not like they can splice them without someone noticing. Instead, the way you accomplish this is by providing NZ what it wants while still retaining plausible deniability if things go south for them ("We had no idea the horrible NSA had secretly placed all this stuff here. We're completely outraged!")