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A very interesting quote, but how much does the government really restrict my freedom? This is a sincere question, because I honestly feel like it isn't that mu

by md224 13y ago

A very interesting quote, but how much does the government really restrict my freedom? This is a sincere question, because I honestly feel like it isn't that much. There are some laws that I think really ought to be changed, but there aren't many times in a given day where I think to myself "oh dammit, I really wanted to do [illegal thing] but I can't because the government won't let me." So it's hard for me to really empathize with Epictetus's analogy, unless the angle is privacy: the lion isn't free because he's always being watched, even if his captors allow him to do as he pleases.

shirro 13y ago
If you grow up living in a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon and are repeatedly told it is there to protect you from evil doers not good people like yourself, is your resulting behaviour still truly that of a free person, or has your behaviour been modified? I live in a rich western democracy which has no capital punishment, torture, extraordinary renditions, executive executions and about 1/5th as many people in prison by population. I don't think it terribly polite to tell friends how to conduct themselves but I feel for all my countries considerable shortcomings, for the most part we conduct ourselves in a way which is morally superior. I continue to be surprised that a country founded on some very high minded principles (equality, separation of powers, rule of law etc) seems to be continuing to develop down a path increasingly at odds with other highly developed democracies and I continue to wonder with a free press and a politically involved citizenry why that should be?
- briancaw2 13y ago
  I think the number of ways the a country as big and powerful and geographically isolated and culturally diverse as the USA is different than a rich western democracy is out of scope of a forum comment. But I think the short answer is that your woes generally fall into 2 categories: fallout from slavery/racism (prison, capital punishment) and stuff that has to do with terrorism/being the sole hegemonic power in the world (torture...etc.).
kafkaesque 13y ago
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. ("Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein.") -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
- md224 13y ago
  Another interesting quote, but I'd be far more interested in concrete examples. The biggest problem is restrictions on the freedom to dissent. I agree that is a big problem (if not the central problem) with regard to government surveillance. Beyond that, though, there are some laws that should be changed (controversial issues like gay marriage, etc.), but what else? What am I wrongfully denied the freedom to do? I hope you realize that "you don't know how enslaved you are" is really a terrible catchphrase for a movement. People just roll their eyes when they hear that. You need to back it up with something they can relate to.
  - beerglass 13y ago
    There are two answers to this in the video. 1) Even if you are not doing anything wrong, you are being watched. You don't have to have done anything wrong, but if you fall under suspicion due to a bad call, they can go back into this system and analyse every decision you've made, every friend you've ever discussed with and attack you on that basis; that derives suspicion based on an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrong-doer. 2) The storage systems are growing by an order of magnitude every year and if this sort of a system is not stopped at this stage and if we allow this and assume this to be legal, imagine the kind of danger it may bring in the next few generations.

by md224 13y ago

shirro 13y ago

If you grow up living in a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon and are repeatedly told it is there to protect you from evil doers not good people like yourself, is your resulting behaviour still truly that of a free person, or has your behaviour been modified? I live in a rich western democracy which has no capital punishment, torture, extraordinary renditions, executive executions and about 1/5th as many people in prison by population. I don't think it terribly polite to tell friends how to conduct themselves but I feel for all my countries considerable shortcomings, for the most part we conduct ourselves in a way which is morally superior. I continue to be surprised that a country founded on some very high minded principles (equality, separation of powers, rule of law etc) seems to be continuing to develop down a path increasingly at odds with other highly developed democracies and I continue to wonder with a free press and a politically involved citizenry why that should be?

briancaw2 13y ago
I think the number of ways the a country as big and powerful and geographically isolated and culturally diverse as the USA is different than a rich western democracy is out of scope of a forum comment. But I think the short answer is that your woes generally fall into 2 categories: fallout from slavery/racism (prison, capital punishment) and stuff that has to do with terrorism/being the sole hegemonic power in the world (torture...etc.).

kafkaesque 13y ago

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. ("Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein.") -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

md224 13y ago
Another interesting quote, but I'd be far more interested in concrete examples. The biggest problem is restrictions on the freedom to dissent. I agree that is a big problem (if not the central problem) with regard to government surveillance. Beyond that, though, there are some laws that should be changed (controversial issues like gay marriage, etc.), but what else? What am I wrongfully denied the freedom to do? I hope you realize that "you don't know how enslaved you are" is really a terrible catchphrase for a movement. People just roll their eyes when they hear that. You need to back it up with something they can relate to.
- beerglass 13y ago
  There are two answers to this in the video. 1) Even if you are not doing anything wrong, you are being watched. You don't have to have done anything wrong, but if you fall under suspicion due to a bad call, they can go back into this system and analyse every decision you've made, every friend you've ever discussed with and attack you on that basis; that derives suspicion based on an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrong-doer. 2) The storage systems are growing by an order of magnitude every year and if this sort of a system is not stopped at this stage and if we allow this and assume this to be legal, imagine the kind of danger it may bring in the next few generations.