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Rewarding Edward Snowden's Courage
- dw5ight 13y agodamn stoked to help Snowden out after the service he's done us all, at significant risk to his own career and liberty
- llamataboot 13y agoHow are you going to get him the money? My guess is he'd rather the money go in his name to the EFF/etc.
- jenius 13y agoHe could easily do that once he has it - I think the point is that it's up to him : )
- tlrobinson 13y agoBitcoin, of course. I'm only half joking.
- sneak 13y agoI'm sure the NSA doesn't know how to deanonymize flows from traffic analysis. Oh, wait.
- rdl 13y agoThis technically exposes him to somewhat more liability than he had before, right? "Financially benefits from his crime"
- jenius 13y agoOh man, interesting thought. Any people knowledgeable about the law that can comment on this?
- mpyne 13y agoIANAL but as far as I know you can create a blind trust to pay for legal expenses, and have excess donated to charity or something. That would prevent personal financial benefit from a crime. Otherwise how would any legal defense fund ever work?
- rdl 13y agoYeah, I was going to suggest a legal defense fund, or really just EFF donations earmarked to his case.
- LoganCale 13y agoSome would probably argue that contributing to this is treason. Providing material aid to an enemy of the United States.
- r00fus 13y agoWe have met the enemy and he is us.
- zxcdw 13y agoIf people exposing malicious facts about those in power is considered to be enemies of those in power(The United States in this case), then I support them thoroughly in whichever way I can regardless of what anyone might think of it. The fact that transparency is an issue for those who hold power is alone a huge reason to support people like Snowden who reveal the true nature of affairs which are being kept secret by not being transparent in the first place.
- LoganCale 13y agoI'm not suggesting he is an enemy of the United States, but rather that people in power may declare him one.
- dale386 13y agoThis will be cute until donors start being investigated for funding terrorism.
- u2328 13y agoReally, terrorism? How has he inflict any physical damage on anyone? Agree or disagree with his actions, it's clearly not terrorism. I look down in disgust on anybody that frames his actions in that light.
- tlrobinson 13y agoI doubt the OP was calling him a terrorist, just saying (perhaps jokingly) that it's possible that's how the government will try to portray him. Did you see the article titled "How three pacifists were convicted as terrorists" currently on the front page of HN? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5848148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5848148
- u2328 13y agoMy statement stands. If he/she was being tongue-in-cheek, then it doesn't apply. If it's the powers-that-be that do it, well, there you are.
- dale386 13y agoYes, that's exactly what I was going for.
- u2328 13y agoWell, my apologies if I insulted you personally. It was meant to be an attack on the notation that this can be framed as 'terrorism'.
- riggins 13y agoReally, terrorism? exactly. people are making unsupportable claims.
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- blhack 13y agoWow, I would tread incredibly lightly here. In the eyes of the US government, this person could be considered an enemy of the state...and you're literally giving them aid. That's probably a pretty serious crime. I support this person as well, but there is something to be said about living to fight another day. Directly giving money to [possible] enemies of the state might not be the greatest idea.
- danielrakh 13y agoThe fact that we've reached a point where one has to question if it's safe for them to contribute to a cause like this makes me shudder with disgust.
- dodyg 13y agoYes. This is one of these moments when you can feel whether you truly have freedom or not.
- mcantelon 13y agoI don't recall anyone who contributed to Bradley Manning's defense fund (or to Wikileaks) getting hauled off to Gitmo.
- dnautics 13y agopeople did. I didn't. But I think this guy is more articulate, more well-reasoned, less impetuous, and more forward-thinking than Manning (and certainly Assange). Disclaimer: I have no reason to believe so except gut feeling.
- ewbuoi 13y agoI think Manning had/has some mental health problems. I'm pretty sure he was struggling with depression. This guy sounds like he's in a much better place, mentally, to go up against the US government. Being a contractor (citizen) will probably also make this a lot easier for him than it is for Manning.
- kohanz 13y agoThis seems a bit strange to me. Snowden was very well compensated for his work (articles mention a $200k salary) as a young man and despite this he still did the right thing and followed his conscience. My bet is he would be the first to tell you that the real reward for him is the weight off of his shoulders. Rewarding such a brave act with a "cash prize" doesn't seem appropriate.
- mcantelon 13y agoWouldn't be that surprising, given the sketchiness of some Kickstarter-type funds, if the money never makes it to Snowden.
- brilee 13y agoHe didn't do this for the money... I've been offered minor cash gifts for significant volunteer work that I've done previously, and it's usually sort of offensive - nowhere near large enough to compensate for my time, and I didn't do it for money. The right way to go about this is probably to find a way to get meals continually delivered to him in his hotel after his credit card is inevitably cancelled.
- dodyg 13y agoHe needs financial, physical and political protection. Most people can contribute to the financial and the political part.
- bluetooth 13y agoTwo issues I can see arising from this: 1. You're funding someone who the government most likely has labelled a terrorist. I don't think the government will take too kindly to such a thing. 2. Snowden is in hiding. Not only might it be hard to come into contact with him, but how can we be sure our money will reach him? I think #1 is not too difficult to solve via ways of bitcoin, but #2 is still a blocker.
- zxcdw 13y agoRegarding #1: Why should the government have a say on this at all? The person is doing a favor for the citizens of the whole world which happens to backfire for the government which has things to hide. Just the sole fact that government might be pissed about something transparency advocating like this should be enough of a reason to support it. It's the government which should be afraid of the people and not the people who should be afraid of the government!
- bluetooth 13y agoMaybe you're forgetting, but this is the real world. Ideally, the government should be afraid of its people, but the US is in a far from ideal situation right now.
- zxcdw 13y agoWhich is exactly the reason why people should realize that whatever was done by Snowden is good for them. Because what Snowden did is good for them and if the government opposes it in any way then government opposes what is good for the people. Government is the enemy of the people. People should go against their government. (Besides, I said should be rather than is. :)
- riggins 13y agoYou're funding someone who the government most likely has labelled a terrorist huh? how do you get 'terrorist' from revealing secret information?
- u2328 13y agoSnowden clearly indicated that he did not want this controversy to become about him, and he indicated that he only came out to vindicate the Guardian story from being discredited. Nobody knows his current financial situation. I think we can all appreciate the ideal, but at this point, it's probably better to donate to the EFF, EPIC and the ACLU. Not to mention, maybe even get a subscription to the Guardian US in support of investigative journalism.
- lukejduncan 13y agoThis. Donate to the EFF. There was a post recently that they lived off a $5-million dollar budget. It needs to be bigger.
- d23 13y agoHe seemed to say he made a good deal of money too, so I doubt 15 grand will be a life-changer for him.
- afk42 13y agoTrue that. Guy used to earn 200,000 grand a year (A little over 16 grand a month), not to mention a bunch of other goodies working for the NSA. I hardly doubt whether the 15 grand the campaign has already reached would help him.
- mpyne 13y agoGuys, hyperbole is not necessary here. The last "spy" that the U.S. caught was not designated an "enemy of the state" or anything nearly so extreme, so at least wait for Obama to put on the anti-Christ mask before you start freaking out please. Pretty soon I'll literally be able to see out the back of my head. Likewise, treason has a specific Constitutional definition, both on actions that constitute treason and the witnesses required to prove it. As a civilian (contractor no less, not even a Government employee!) Snowden does not fall under UCMJ so all this crap about "Aiding the Enemy" is crap as well. You should be worried about Espionage Act, not UCMJ. Likewise, giving "aid and comfort" to someone accused of a crime would fall under the same rules as any other person accused of a crime. If there ends up being a valid warrant for his arrest then you should not help him evade arrest. You should not help him commit further crimes or cover up evidence of previous ones. But certainly you can contribute to his legal defense fund (though be careful that those evil Fed prosecutors don't freeze those assets :P). Those cautions are nothing special about this case, it's always been a bad idea (legally speaking) to aid and abet crime. If you feel your morals will outweigh that then bon voyage, but go in forewarned. Also, yes, it's possible your actions will be more closely scrutinized in the future if you aid Snowden, but things that are worth doing are not typically easy, otherwise they'd already be done. I would be more worried about ensuring that you don't end up crowdsourcing or kickstarting some con man's bank account instead of Snowden's legal defense fund, but then again I've always been sort of a pessimist...
- jbranchaud 13y agoThis is to completely miss the point [1]. Not everything is about compensation or reward. There are things worth doing that have nothing to do with money. To try to strap a reward onto this or some similar situation is to diminish it. If you feel compelled to give money, give it to an organization that can effect meaningful change for those that may need it. Based on [1], it doesn't seem that Snowden is one that needs it. 1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-n...
- DanielBMarkham 13y agoI am a patriot, a former service member, and I love my country. As much as I love talking about politics, I have never taken an active protest role in my life. I'm middle-aged, completly non-violent, and I live in a rural area. I am literally the last person in the world you would expect of being a political activist. Hell, I'm even in favor of some SIGINT, as long as we are talking simple node-to-node analysis. But that's not what happened. What happened was a vaccum cleaner. They're sucking up every piece of meta-data they can get their hands on. And it's not because of some cost-benefit equation that the public was shown. It's simply because they can. As a patriot, I feel that the only patriotic thing to do for all other patriots is to come out, rally and support Snowden. The government has stepped over the line here, and we all need to clearly let them know that this needs to be fixed. And no, this case is not the same as Manning. Snowden saw one thing that he was willing to take the penalty for. He released data on one thing. Now, as the natural legislative body of the state, the people can make a choice whether to support him or not based on this one issue. I can support that kind of behavior. Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on. He is truly an enemy of the system itself. Different thing entirely.
- ajaymehta 13y agoHear hear, my friend. I just contributed $50.
- clicks 13y ago> Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on. He is truly an enemy of the system itself. What are your thoughts on Snowden referring to Manning as an admirable heroic figure? > Manning betrayed his country by releasing everything he could get his hands on. I think really there isn't a big difference between the two. Snowden is trusting Greenwald's discretion on what gets published, Manning trusted Wikileaks on what would be published (and recall that Wikileaks did go on to redact a lot of what Manning leaked). Snowden's problem was with eroding civil liberties, Manning's problem was the state carrying out immoral operations (actions which resulted in a loss of many innocent lives). I don't think the two are so markedly dissimilar. At least, besides Snowden being very astute and mature vs. Manning being a troubled, depressed individual with a sad history of personal problems (though, to Manning's credit the chat logs do reveal him to be a very morally aware person). If you argue that Manning's leaks adversely affected America's geopolitical position, you also have to account for the business ramifications that will follow because of Snowden's leaks. Now all of Europe, Asia, etc. is going to be suspicious about Gmail, Facebook, etc. America just lost a bunch of business from non-American users.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- runn1ng 13y agoummm.... where will my money actually go? The campaign is very light on details. I will not give them money just because they used his picture in a header. I will rather post the money to EFF
- downandout 13y agoThe fact that money is trickling into this campaign, while campaigns such as one to send a heckled school bus driver on vacation explode with hundreds of thousands of dollars, shows our society's ignorance. This man is a hero, and is likely to be cannon fodder for the US Justice system. John Mccain went on CNN this morning and said that this whole thing isn't a big issue in the minds of most Americans and there won't be much if any political fallout. I am sure he is saying that with polling numbers in hand. Mark Udall, who has been trying to warn Americans about this for years, also appeared and was made to look like an overaggressive alarmist. They may as well have superimposed a tinfoil hat on him. This whole thing gives us a very scary glimpse into how pliable the populace is. Many assumed that the NSA was doing this, but not so obvious until this incident was the depth of ambivalence Americans have toward their rights. The stage is now set for a remakably dark future, and by the time the populace finally has enough, they will no longer have the power to stop it.
- jnbiche 13y agoI'm incredibly sad reading this, but I feel it's a pretty accurate glimpse into the future. People can't be bothered to care. Outside of libertarians, most people on the right are totally OK with this kind of wholesale spying on the population (since they've "done nothing wrong"). Outside of civil libertarians, most on the left are also OK with this, because "their guy" is in the White House (the fact that they pilloried Bush for the same behavior doesn't seem to occur to them). But the scariest thing of all is that all of these people in aggregate are a small portion of the population -- the vast majority just don't care enough about "politics" to inform themselves.
- untog 13y agoLet me throw a concept out there: there is not objective "correct" position to take in this case. Who are we to say that this level of surveillance is not worth it? We know very little if anything of what it has achieved. Consider for a while that the population is not "pliable", but that it is possible to have a differing opinion on this topic.
- downandout 13y ago
- ewbuoi 13y agoHe was making $200k a year, I don't think the best way to support him is to give him another $10k. If he needs money, he needs a LOT more than $10k.
- gyardley 13y agoNotice how everything suddenly went from being about the surveillance itself to being about this guy? For someone who doesn't want public attention and wants people to focus on the NSA surveillance programs he exposed, he certainly screwed the pooch by outing himself - now, instead of talking about the surveillance, the media's all just sitting around talking about him. He might as well have sent the administration a gift basket. Since his actions just set back his stated goals more than anything the government could've done, I'm not so certain his stated goals are his actual ones. Are you sure he's not just looking to be famous? Do you really want to give money to someone if it turns out they're just looking for attention?
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- csdreamer7 13y agoWhy is this on crowdtilt? The financial transaction will be blocked by the US. Use bitcoin.
- yuvadam 13y agoSeriously, 'murica? One of the most important heroes of our time blows the whistle on the largest spying industry the world has ever known, and you pay him back with cash? Edward Snowden has done the world and the US a huge deal by sacrificing everything and letting you know just how fucked up things are. Use that knowledge, be inspired by his courage, and tear apart this messed up system of surveillance and oppression.
- buro9 13y agoThere's no way Edward put himself on the line for money. But... how long do you think he can access funds in his name? And how long do you think he will have to stay in hotels and temporary accommodation that he will have to fund? He will need help, the hardest bit isn't even summoning the help, it will be getting it to him.
- 0X000000 13y agoyeah, seems legit: Dwight Crow Product Manager at Facebook Fundraising.... " where R you, m8!? Got a check for youuuuu "
- dodyg 13y agoNominate him for Nobel Peace Prize for this year. It will offer him a better political protection against the current US government and will make him one of the better winners of prize in this decade.
- gizzlon 13y agoWith Crowdit being a US company, what do you think the chance of any substantial funds ever reaching Snowden is? (and that's ignoring all the other obvious problems with this scheme)
- dllthomas 13y agoIf you do this, know that (in my estimation - IANAL) you're likely doing something illegal. Imagine the same situation for any other crime: "You killed someone I don't like; here's $10k". If you choose to do it as an act of civil disobedience itself, more power to you, but it should be deliberate.
- erust2 13y agoA legal defense fund has been set up for Edwars at https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/d2j2/support-edward-snowden https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/d2j2/support-edward-s...
- erust2 13y agoA legal defense fund has been set up at https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/d2j2/support-edward-snowden https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/d2j2/support-edward-s...