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> As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectu

by jibiki 18y ago

> As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectual preening. Therefore, the culture of modern universities should change. I've heard this sentiment expressed on a couple occasions ^^ There's nothing wrong with trying to change to world, or even just your corner of it. It's important not to be too annoying about it, but that's not really an issue here (you can always just ignore the debate and keep on hacking.)

yummyfajitas 18y ago
I don't object if you want to change the world for the better. I object when you want to change the world for your personal benefit. A good argument: "The number of great female hackers is much larger than the number of macho rockstar hackers. To get more good hackers, we should change our culture." [edit: I'm not sure if the good argument is true, but imagine it is for the sake of argument.] A bad argument: "I was offended, the culture should change to accommodate people like me."
- cjbos 18y ago
  Most people go out to change the world to improve their own situation, it just so happens usually that helping their ownsituation also benefits the rest of society. Try telling Kate Sheppard, Myra Bradwell or Jeannette Rankin that the culture shouldn't change to accommodate them
- tvon 18y ago
  I agree with your point in theory, but I don't think that is what is happening in this situation. This is not a single person with a megaphone taking issue with something and insisting that the world accommodate their needs, it's a group of people (men and women) taking issue with the decisions a person made and the way a community reacted to that decision. These people who are objecting are not outsiders, these are people within the community and if they can make good arguments as to why the community did something wrong, I don't see any reason why the community shouldn't change. A "tough luck, throw your own party" argument really doesn't apply here.
- kscaldef 18y ago
  You're assuming the worst from couple of quotes which aren't clearly one or the other of these statements. From my personal interactions with women in programming (including, btw, the author of one of those quotes), most of them seem to be much more aligned with your "good" argument than the "bad" one. They are concerned that there are lots of women who could be valuable contributors to this community, but who choose to go elsewhere because the culture makes them feel unwelcome and unvalued.

by jibiki 18y ago

yummyfajitas 18y ago

I don't object if you want to change the world for the better. I object when you want to change the world for your personal benefit. A good argument: "The number of great female hackers is much larger than the number of macho rockstar hackers. To get more good hackers, we should change our culture." [edit: I'm not sure if the good argument is true, but imagine it is for the sake of argument.] A bad argument: "I was offended, the culture should change to accommodate people like me."

cjbos 18y ago
Most people go out to change the world to improve their own situation, it just so happens usually that helping their ownsituation also benefits the rest of society. Try telling Kate Sheppard, Myra Bradwell or Jeannette Rankin that the culture shouldn't change to accommodate them
tvon 18y ago
I agree with your point in theory, but I don't think that is what is happening in this situation. This is not a single person with a megaphone taking issue with something and insisting that the world accommodate their needs, it's a group of people (men and women) taking issue with the decisions a person made and the way a community reacted to that decision. These people who are objecting are not outsiders, these are people within the community and if they can make good arguments as to why the community did something wrong, I don't see any reason why the community shouldn't change. A "tough luck, throw your own party" argument really doesn't apply here.
kscaldef 18y ago
You're assuming the worst from couple of quotes which aren't clearly one or the other of these statements. From my personal interactions with women in programming (including, btw, the author of one of those quotes), most of them seem to be much more aligned with your "good" argument than the "bad" one. They are concerned that there are lots of women who could be valuable contributors to this community, but who choose to go elsewhere because the culture makes them feel unwelcome and unvalued.