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I get why the presentation/presenter was ineffective for some audiences. I get that there are various assorted prudes that need to be marketed to. I don't get w

I get why the presentation/presenter was ineffective for some audiences. I get that there are various assorted prudes that need to be marketed to. I don't get why everyone has to have an opinion about it. Has no one heard the term "booth babe" before? Been to car show? Turned on the television and seen a beer commercial? Watched a race car driver endorse a domain name registrar? Sure it sucks that marketing and sex are intertwined. Read this: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/04/spent-sex-evolution-and-consumer-behavior.html http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/04... Then can we please shut up and get back to coding?

diN0bot 18y ago
What do car shows and beer commercials have to do with intellectual discourse? yeah, base advertising works. on the other hand, if going to work was like being in a car commercial i doubt we'd produce anything constructive.
- diN0bot 18y ago
  in fact, here's a good quote for that: > "Victoria Wang: DHH’s attitude seems to say that the more we lower ourselves to the most base level of marketing scum in the name of entertainment, the better, even if at the end of the day there are no more women, or anyone worth knowing, in the room. It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again."
  - plinkplonk 18y ago
    "It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again" Don't. It is a free world out there and there's a lot of competing frameworks and languages. I seriously doubt any framework or language designer sets out to have "more women in the room" and neither should they. DHH made his code available for anyone else to use if they wanted to. That doesn't mean he abdicated his values or thought process to to what the rest of the world dictates. He is not an elected leader, who you expect to at least pretend to share your values. He happens to occupy a leadership position because he contributes code. Contributing code shouldn't have to imply political correctness in thought and speech. I think all these complainants should really walk away from Rails (vs blog about it or whine about it day after day after day ) if they are so offended that DHH (or other people) don't share their prejudices on how the world should think. Just. Walk. Away. And how many people will do that (as compared to running a torches and pitchforks type campaign on blogs and twitter)? Not many I would think. And how much difference would it make to Rails if they did walk away? I have no idea though I think, maybe not much. All this looks increasingly like a storm in a teacup.
    - raganwald 18y ago
      So what you seem to be saying, is, if you don't like it, "Fuck You." I think that captures a certain something about the culture, doesn't it?
      - plinkplonk 18y ago
        "So what you seem to be saying, is, if you don't like it, "Fuck You." " Paraphrasing is a dangerous art. What I am really saying (vs your paraphrase claims I said) is "If you don't like X , that is fine. If you want to express your thoughts , that is fine. If you don't want to work on Rails, that is fine too. What is not fine is you expecting me (or anyone else) to think the way you do and say only things you like to hear just because of your feelings are offended. Being offended is your privilege. How much I should care about that is mine." That is a bit more nuanced than" Fuck You", but if you insist on twisting my words to hear it that way, <shrug>
        raganwald 18y ago
        As I indicated when closing my response, my opinion is that "Fuck You" captures a certain something about the Rails Culture's response to many things, this one included. What is there about "Fuck You" that you don't like? Is it that you would prefer to say the same thing more politely?
        axod 18y ago
        You could argue the same about anything - For example if you don't like the fact new Macbooks don't have firewire, Apples response could be paraphrased to "fuck you". You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it.
        raganwald 18y ago
        You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it. The salient difference to me is that saying "Fuck You" about something technical--like composite primary keys--is very different than saying "Fuck You" about someone's comfort level in my community. I personally applaud Rails being opinionated about the former but deplore persons having the same opinionated approach to the latter circumstance.
- mattmcknight 18y ago
  I agree with you that advertising sucks for getting work done, and that's why 90% of technical conferences with endless vendor pitches suck. Pitches for open source stuff can obviously also suck just as badly, and be even more clumsily delivered. Let's not construe a non-technical statement about an open source product as "intellectual discourse". It's an advertorial statement of opinion, not a fact. The CouchDB marketing department may not have approved the message, but, for whatever reason, the guy is trying to get people to try some CouchDB. That's an attempt at persuasion/marketing/advertising. Hence, the relevance of other attempts that use similar means, and the ridiculousness of anyone getting worked into a lather about someone doing it. Of course, must people don't like sitting through commercials. It's even stupider to pay to go to a conference so you can listen to them.
cjbos 18y ago
"Has no one heard the term "booth babe" before? Been to car show? Turned on the television and seen a beer commercial?" Three things that are specifically targeted at the 18-34 Male demographic. I thought the point of this debate was that tech conferences should be more inclusive than just that key demographic that makes up the bulk of the tech sector workforce.
- krschultz 18y ago
  But that is marketing to customers, this is a technical conference. Sex sells but sex does not belong in the workplace. I can see an argument as to why that is a double standard, but it is what it is and if you are going to be a professional you have to respect that.
  - plinkplonk 18y ago
    "sex does not belong in the workplace." Well who said a tech conference is a "workplace"? I thought it was just a place where people who code hung out and discussed stuff. What is "professional" and what is not depends on what you are trying to do. I guess I just don't think of a tech conference as equivalent to another day in the company cube farm, unless of course I am representing the company is some official capacity.

diN0bot 18y ago

What do car shows and beer commercials have to do with intellectual discourse? yeah, base advertising works. on the other hand, if going to work was like being in a car commercial i doubt we'd produce anything constructive.

diN0bot 18y ago
in fact, here's a good quote for that: > "Victoria Wang: DHH’s attitude seems to say that the more we lower ourselves to the most base level of marketing scum in the name of entertainment, the better, even if at the end of the day there are no more women, or anyone worth knowing, in the room. It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again."
- plinkplonk 18y ago
  "It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again" Don't. It is a free world out there and there's a lot of competing frameworks and languages. I seriously doubt any framework or language designer sets out to have "more women in the room" and neither should they. DHH made his code available for anyone else to use if they wanted to. That doesn't mean he abdicated his values or thought process to to what the rest of the world dictates. He is not an elected leader, who you expect to at least pretend to share your values. He happens to occupy a leadership position because he contributes code. Contributing code shouldn't have to imply political correctness in thought and speech. I think all these complainants should really walk away from Rails (vs blog about it or whine about it day after day after day ) if they are so offended that DHH (or other people) don't share their prejudices on how the world should think. Just. Walk. Away. And how many people will do that (as compared to running a torches and pitchforks type campaign on blogs and twitter)? Not many I would think. And how much difference would it make to Rails if they did walk away? I have no idea though I think, maybe not much. All this looks increasingly like a storm in a teacup.
  - raganwald 18y ago
    So what you seem to be saying, is, if you don't like it, "Fuck You." I think that captures a certain something about the culture, doesn't it?
    - plinkplonk 18y ago
      "So what you seem to be saying, is, if you don't like it, "Fuck You." " Paraphrasing is a dangerous art. What I am really saying (vs your paraphrase claims I said) is "If you don't like X , that is fine. If you want to express your thoughts , that is fine. If you don't want to work on Rails, that is fine too. What is not fine is you expecting me (or anyone else) to think the way you do and say only things you like to hear just because of your feelings are offended. Being offended is your privilege. How much I should care about that is mine." That is a bit more nuanced than" Fuck You", but if you insist on twisting my words to hear it that way, <shrug>
      - raganwald 18y ago
        As I indicated when closing my response, my opinion is that "Fuck You" captures a certain something about the Rails Culture's response to many things, this one included. What is there about "Fuck You" that you don't like? Is it that you would prefer to say the same thing more politely?
        axod 18y ago
        You could argue the same about anything - For example if you don't like the fact new Macbooks don't have firewire, Apples response could be paraphrased to "fuck you". You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it.
        raganwald 18y ago
        You can't please everyone, and if you don't like something, don't use it. The salient difference to me is that saying "Fuck You" about something technical--like composite primary keys--is very different than saying "Fuck You" about someone's comfort level in my community. I personally applaud Rails being opinionated about the former but deplore persons having the same opinionated approach to the latter circumstance.
mattmcknight 18y ago
I agree with you that advertising sucks for getting work done, and that's why 90% of technical conferences with endless vendor pitches suck. Pitches for open source stuff can obviously also suck just as badly, and be even more clumsily delivered. Let's not construe a non-technical statement about an open source product as "intellectual discourse". It's an advertorial statement of opinion, not a fact. The CouchDB marketing department may not have approved the message, but, for whatever reason, the guy is trying to get people to try some CouchDB. That's an attempt at persuasion/marketing/advertising. Hence, the relevance of other attempts that use similar means, and the ridiculousness of anyone getting worked into a lather about someone doing it. Of course, must people don't like sitting through commercials. It's even stupider to pay to go to a conference so you can listen to them.

cjbos 18y ago

"Has no one heard the term "booth babe" before? Been to car show? Turned on the television and seen a beer commercial?" Three things that are specifically targeted at the 18-34 Male demographic. I thought the point of this debate was that tech conferences should be more inclusive than just that key demographic that makes up the bulk of the tech sector workforce.

krschultz 18y ago
But that is marketing to customers, this is a technical conference. Sex sells but sex does not belong in the workplace. I can see an argument as to why that is a double standard, but it is what it is and if you are going to be a professional you have to respect that.
- plinkplonk 18y ago
  "sex does not belong in the workplace." Well who said a tech conference is a "workplace"? I thought it was just a place where people who code hung out and discussed stuff. What is "professional" and what is not depends on what you are trying to do. I guess I just don't think of a tech conference as equivalent to another day in the company cube farm, unless of course I am representing the company is some official capacity.