3 ms·

What is interesting from a scientific point of view, and this is one subject we know a lot more about than actual nutrition, is why people who are otherwise sci

by stiff 13y ago

What is interesting from a scientific point of view, and this is one subject we know a lot more about than actual nutrition, is why people who are otherwise scientific minded skeptics are superstitious when it comes to nutrition (if you believe that eating more green vegetable or less, consuming more vitamin C or less, more saturated fat or less is actually better for you, then you are superstitious, unless you are knowingly placing a scientifically unfounded bet on one diet over another). There is certainly lots of superstition in all of our beliefs, but you overblown your thesis to the point of being a bit ridiculous... First of all you present it as "all or nothing" choice, like either you had full knowledge from a scientific study or otherwise there would be absolutely no reasons to choice one alternative over the other. In the absence of absolutely certain evidence there are still more or less "probably good" choices given the informations we have and there are also heuristics that might be helpful. You also assume that the only way to navigate nutritional choices is through statistical studies. There are other ways though, we have a decent understanding of the physiology of the human body and its biochemistry and we happen to know for example that the moving of waste products through the intestines is greatly helped by fiber consumption, so I don't think eating green vegetables is particularly superstitious. With your point about "purity" you wander into psychoanalysis, which is rather funny considering your supposedly hyper-rational stance.

pron 13y ago
It's not all or nothing, obviously, but many people's dietary choices (especially those who consider themselves most health-conscious) go far, far beyond anything that's supported by science. My claim is that most dietary choices beyond a reasonable intake of calories and more or less "normal" food is magical thinking and worse -- it's pseudoscience. This includes what we know about human physiology. We know how some systems work, but we don't know much about how they interact. Suppose fiber helps to move waste through the intestines. But does it have other effects as well? Is it good overall? And suppose it is good overall -- just how good is it? Is it even worth the effort of consciously increasing your green vegetable consumption by 10%? This last point is the crucial one, because I'm trying to show that when it comes to food, some people actively change their behavior based on conjectures, or little evidence. BTW, what I like most about John Ioannidis's work is that he not only proved theoretically that most medical research is false, but he showed it empirically: He showed that a large percentage of papers in the best regarded medical journal turned out to either be completely false, or to have a much reduced effect-size. Some of these papers suggested practices that, at the time, were considered "probably good" choices, and have since been shown to be anything but. What I was saying about purity had nothing to do with psychoanalysis. Not all psychology and anthropology is psychoanalysis, and I suggest you take a look at Haidt's research. At the very least, it's thought provoking. Lastly, I'm not taking a hyper-rational stance. I've long ago realized that I, like all people, am far from rational. I am superstitious myself, and about stranger things than food. I just think that the rise of the food religion among the educated liberal elite is interesting. I am very much interested in the history of religion and mysticism, and I always find it fascinating how magic works its way back into our lives -- contrary to Max Weber's assertion -- no matter our background. Haidt's theory of values is one especially interesting framework through which to examine this phenomenon.
- doktrin 13y ago
  > BTW, what I like most about John Ioannidis's work is that he not only proved theoretically that most medical research is false "Proved" is being thrown about a bit liberally in connection with Ioannidis' work. It's certainly in dispute [1] Either way, it seems your central point has a number of flaws. What you are attributing to superstition (e.g. consuming more leafy greens) is in fact more often than not rational decision making based on admittedly limited information. Will the consumption of vegetables ultimately improve ones health? I don't know, let's take a more specific example. For instance, take someone interested in positively affecting their likelihood of developing diabetes. A quick google search turns up a study that notes a correlation between increased vegetable intake and a reduced risk of diabetes[2]. Of course, increasing intake of green vegetables may mean a decrease in some other substance. Another quick search turns up a research study documenting a link between increased fructose consumption and insulin resistance [3]. Thus, if I were hypothetically interested in positively affecting my insulin response, it would be quite logical to increase my consumption of green vegetables while decreasing my intake of sugar. Is this course of action wrong? Possibly. However, it's certainly rational and not exactly "superstitious". You've defined the term so loosely as to encapsulate even such things as making rational decisions based on limited information. That is certainly not what superstitious really means. Certainly, someone who refuses to change their dietary habits despite ample refuting evidence could be classified as superstitious, but that's not a distinction you have made. [1] http://www.technologyreview.com/view/510126/the-statistical-puzzle-over-how-much-biomedical-research-is-wrong/ http://www.technologyreview.com/view/510126/the-statistical-... [2] http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-08/bmj-glv081810.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-08/bmj-glv081810... [3] http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/5 http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/5
  - pron 13y ago
    > What you are attributing to superstition (e.g. consuming more leafy greens) is in fact more often than not rational decision making based on admittedly limited information. Perhaps I have not made my case clearly. Magical thinking has two parts: the first is being wrong (although that's not essential for magical thinking; it can be accidentally true); the second -- and this is what distinguishes magical thinking and superstition from mere false belief -- is its motivation to action. People believe many things that are wrong, but superstition is the false belief that changes their behavior. My claim is that healthy food falls under the category of superstition, or magical thinking, because people so readily turn what you call limited information into action. What we may think of as "classical superstition", say fear of black cats, was also based on limited information. I'm sure there was plenty of evidence to suggest black cats are harbingers of bad luck. So, fearing black cats could be classified as rational action. But fear of black cats, same as the healthy-food religion, is superstition precisely because it is a belief people accept based on lower standards of evidence than they would in other aspects of their lives, and at the same time motivates them to take action. Why? Because they want to believe it. It makes them either afraid or hopeful.

by stiff 13y ago

pron 13y ago

It's not all or nothing, obviously, but many people's dietary choices (especially those who consider themselves most health-conscious) go far, far beyond anything that's supported by science. My claim is that most dietary choices beyond a reasonable intake of calories and more or less "normal" food is magical thinking and worse -- it's pseudoscience. This includes what we know about human physiology. We know how some systems work, but we don't know much about how they interact. Suppose fiber helps to move waste through the intestines. But does it have other effects as well? Is it good overall? And suppose it is good overall -- just how good is it? Is it even worth the effort of consciously increasing your green vegetable consumption by 10%? This last point is the crucial one, because I'm trying to show that when it comes to food, some people actively change their behavior based on conjectures, or little evidence. BTW, what I like most about John Ioannidis's work is that he not only proved theoretically that most medical research is false, but he showed it empirically: He showed that a large percentage of papers in the best regarded medical journal turned out to either be completely false, or to have a much reduced effect-size. Some of these papers suggested practices that, at the time, were considered "probably good" choices, and have since been shown to be anything but. What I was saying about purity had nothing to do with psychoanalysis. Not all psychology and anthropology is psychoanalysis, and I suggest you take a look at Haidt's research. At the very least, it's thought provoking. Lastly, I'm not taking a hyper-rational stance. I've long ago realized that I, like all people, am far from rational. I am superstitious myself, and about stranger things than food. I just think that the rise of the food religion among the educated liberal elite is interesting. I am very much interested in the history of religion and mysticism, and I always find it fascinating how magic works its way back into our lives -- contrary to Max Weber's assertion -- no matter our background. Haidt's theory of values is one especially interesting framework through which to examine this phenomenon.

doktrin 13y ago
> BTW, what I like most about John Ioannidis's work is that he not only proved theoretically that most medical research is false "Proved" is being thrown about a bit liberally in connection with Ioannidis' work. It's certainly in dispute [1] Either way, it seems your central point has a number of flaws. What you are attributing to superstition (e.g. consuming more leafy greens) is in fact more often than not rational decision making based on admittedly limited information. Will the consumption of vegetables ultimately improve ones health? I don't know, let's take a more specific example. For instance, take someone interested in positively affecting their likelihood of developing diabetes. A quick google search turns up a study that notes a correlation between increased vegetable intake and a reduced risk of diabetes[2]. Of course, increasing intake of green vegetables may mean a decrease in some other substance. Another quick search turns up a research study documenting a link between increased fructose consumption and insulin resistance [3]. Thus, if I were hypothetically interested in positively affecting my insulin response, it would be quite logical to increase my consumption of green vegetables while decreasing my intake of sugar. Is this course of action wrong? Possibly. However, it's certainly rational and not exactly "superstitious". You've defined the term so loosely as to encapsulate even such things as making rational decisions based on limited information. That is certainly not what superstitious really means. Certainly, someone who refuses to change their dietary habits despite ample refuting evidence could be classified as superstitious, but that's not a distinction you have made. [1] http://www.technologyreview.com/view/510126/the-statistical-puzzle-over-how-much-biomedical-research-is-wrong/ http://www.technologyreview.com/view/510126/the-statistical-... [2] http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-08/bmj-glv081810.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-08/bmj-glv081810... [3] http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/5 http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/5
- pron 13y ago
  > What you are attributing to superstition (e.g. consuming more leafy greens) is in fact more often than not rational decision making based on admittedly limited information. Perhaps I have not made my case clearly. Magical thinking has two parts: the first is being wrong (although that's not essential for magical thinking; it can be accidentally true); the second -- and this is what distinguishes magical thinking and superstition from mere false belief -- is its motivation to action. People believe many things that are wrong, but superstition is the false belief that changes their behavior. My claim is that healthy food falls under the category of superstition, or magical thinking, because people so readily turn what you call limited information into action. What we may think of as "classical superstition", say fear of black cats, was also based on limited information. I'm sure there was plenty of evidence to suggest black cats are harbingers of bad luck. So, fearing black cats could be classified as rational action. But fear of black cats, same as the healthy-food religion, is superstition precisely because it is a belief people accept based on lower standards of evidence than they would in other aspects of their lives, and at the same time motivates them to take action. Why? Because they want to believe it. It makes them either afraid or hopeful.