6 ms·

Another thing: p2p is totally broken. You can work around it with central servers, but then [ cough skype ] you have a dependence on a big server farm that cost

Another thing: p2p is totally broken. You can work around it with central servers, but then [ cough skype ] you have a dependence on a big server farm that costs a bunch of money. In the long run, they won't keep you safe. As an addendum, at least with home connections the technically inclined could badger their routers into allowing incoming connections. Given that computers (that can run long-running background services) and land lines are going to be the exclusive domain of the rich or the programmers in a few years, there is essentially no hope at all of fixing this.

gizmo686 13y ago
>Given that computers (that can run long-running background services) and land lines are going to be the exclusive domain of the rich or the programmers in a few years, there is essentially no hope at all of fixing this. Not nessasarilly. I suspect that in home wifi will continue to be common, which means that homes would continue to have a wired connection to the internet. If a company develops and markets a product to be a 'personal cloud', then a typical consumer should be able to use it. The requirements for such a server (for a typicall user) are pretty low, and computers continue to become cheaper, so the price shouldn't be prohibitive for a large market. Even the UI for the server itself seems relativly simple. Essentially all you need is a good package management system, and for the individual p2p 'apps' to have easy to use configuration. Once IPv6 takes off, it would be trivial to these machines globally routable, then it is either a matter of allowing consumers to easilly get a DNS to their server, or creating some easy way to tell devices where to look (this is probably the hardest part). The main problem in getting this adopted, I suspect, would be that it does not provide enough additional value over the centralized servers for mass adoption. Combine this with the network effects of lock-in, and you would need serious value add for this to work.
- krakensden 13y ago
  > Not nessasarilly. I suspect that in home wifi will continue to be common Home WiFi has been widespread for at least a decade, and the UX for bypassing NAT is worse than ever. UPnP still comes disabled or broken, if at all. You could build a better experience, but you will never, ever get Microsoft, Apple, Google, Cisco, or Belkin to cooperate, so we're still DOA- the curious need to learn a shitload of scary tech or buy new equipment.
  - tmzt 13y ago
    You could build a fairly universal application for flashing DD-WRT or a similar firmware on an available router, and supply updates for new routers or flashing mechanisms through a web service. Another concern is standalone routers becoming less and less common as ISPs supply routers.
    - ef4 13y ago
      > You could build a fairly universal application for flashing DD-WRT That is definitely not the way to get mass adoption. Way too much friction. It's the difference between installing Ubuntu from DVD and buying an Android device: you need to sell it preinstalled for mass adoption.
  - gizmo686 13y ago
    >Home WiFi has been widespread for at least a decade, and the UX for bypassing NAT is worse than ever. UPnP still comes disabled or broken, if at all. Hopefully IPv6 will make this a non-issue. EDIT: Also, a specifically designed 'personal cloud' could also go between the main cable to your house and your router, bypassing any NAT issues with the router.
  - ef4 13y ago
    You don't need to get the user to open up ports to build a home server appliance that seamlessly works. You just need some people with routable IPs to serve as rendezvous points for the rest. These machines can be totally untrusted. From there you can bootstrap a peer-to-peer VPN.
dlitz 13y ago
IPv6 can fix p2p connectivity, as long as the people rolling it out don't screw it up by using NAT or (to some extent) deny-by-default firewalls.
- krakensden 13y ago
  I have every expectation that they will. My impression was that people were working very hard to port NAT and all of its problems to IPv6. Even if that doesn't happen, somehow, I expect 99% of routers will ship with broken, difficult to use deny-by-default firewalls.

gizmo686 13y ago

>Given that computers (that can run long-running background services) and land lines are going to be the exclusive domain of the rich or the programmers in a few years, there is essentially no hope at all of fixing this. Not nessasarilly. I suspect that in home wifi will continue to be common, which means that homes would continue to have a wired connection to the internet. If a company develops and markets a product to be a 'personal cloud', then a typical consumer should be able to use it. The requirements for such a server (for a typicall user) are pretty low, and computers continue to become cheaper, so the price shouldn't be prohibitive for a large market. Even the UI for the server itself seems relativly simple. Essentially all you need is a good package management system, and for the individual p2p 'apps' to have easy to use configuration. Once IPv6 takes off, it would be trivial to these machines globally routable, then it is either a matter of allowing consumers to easilly get a DNS to their server, or creating some easy way to tell devices where to look (this is probably the hardest part). The main problem in getting this adopted, I suspect, would be that it does not provide enough additional value over the centralized servers for mass adoption. Combine this with the network effects of lock-in, and you would need serious value add for this to work.

krakensden 13y ago
> Not nessasarilly. I suspect that in home wifi will continue to be common Home WiFi has been widespread for at least a decade, and the UX for bypassing NAT is worse than ever. UPnP still comes disabled or broken, if at all. You could build a better experience, but you will never, ever get Microsoft, Apple, Google, Cisco, or Belkin to cooperate, so we're still DOA- the curious need to learn a shitload of scary tech or buy new equipment.
- tmzt 13y ago
  You could build a fairly universal application for flashing DD-WRT or a similar firmware on an available router, and supply updates for new routers or flashing mechanisms through a web service. Another concern is standalone routers becoming less and less common as ISPs supply routers.
  - ef4 13y ago
    > You could build a fairly universal application for flashing DD-WRT That is definitely not the way to get mass adoption. Way too much friction. It's the difference between installing Ubuntu from DVD and buying an Android device: you need to sell it preinstalled for mass adoption.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  >Home WiFi has been widespread for at least a decade, and the UX for bypassing NAT is worse than ever. UPnP still comes disabled or broken, if at all. Hopefully IPv6 will make this a non-issue. EDIT: Also, a specifically designed 'personal cloud' could also go between the main cable to your house and your router, bypassing any NAT issues with the router.
- ef4 13y ago
  You don't need to get the user to open up ports to build a home server appliance that seamlessly works. You just need some people with routable IPs to serve as rendezvous points for the rest. These machines can be totally untrusted. From there you can bootstrap a peer-to-peer VPN.

dlitz 13y ago

IPv6 can fix p2p connectivity, as long as the people rolling it out don't screw it up by using NAT or (to some extent) deny-by-default firewalls.

krakensden 13y ago
I have every expectation that they will. My impression was that people were working very hard to port NAT and all of its problems to IPv6. Even if that doesn't happen, somehow, I expect 99% of routers will ship with broken, difficult to use deny-by-default firewalls.