6 ms·

Rover Finds New Evidence That Ancient Mars Was Habitable

77 points by smaili 13y ago

ygmelnikova 13y ago
Look.. Life on Mars! Oh wait, no. Look! Life on Mars! Ah, never mind. Ad infinitum
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  Science isn't just some magical box that you press a button on and get definitive answers out of, it's a process. Sometimes it's frustrating to watch that process narrow in on answers, but that's the nature of discovery. So far as I know there's only ever been one serious claim for life on Mars (the Alan Hills Mars meteorite claim from the 90s). What has been happening recently has been more and more evidence about the conditions of ancient Mars, especially in relation to the long-term presence of water. We've known for a long time that Mars has had liquid water on it in the past, what we haven't known is how much and for how long and under what conditions. We've known more recently that Mars still contains a substantial amount of sub-surface water ice over much of its area. And we've learned more recently that Mars appears to have had sufficient water to form long-lived lakes and rivers, long enough to allow the formation of both rounded river rocks and pebbles as well as conglomerate rocks made up of those but also hydrate minerals that can only form in conditions of near neutral pH and low salinity. These are big discoveries, even though from a certain perspective they may seem like yet another "water on Mars!" story. These discoveries are painting a picture of ancient Mars that was not just occasionally wet or perhaps a hellscape Mars covered with brackish or boiling lakes but an almost familiar Mars with lakes and rivers that would be nearly drinkable for humans and that lasted millions of years at least. Certainly conditions that lots of Earth-bound life would find it quite easy to live in. And that provides the tantalizing hope that perhaps some form of life arose on Mars and survived for a time and perhaps lives still in some sheltered underground areas. It's not evidence or proof of life, it's the hint of a possibility. But again, that's the way science works. You narrow down possibilities and provide hints for further investigations.
  - ygmelnikova 13y ago
    'may', 'tantalizing hope', 'perhaps'... What about 'maybe not', 'doubtful', 'perhaps not'... is that any less scientific? Imagine applying for a $1B grant to study the possibility of a designer? What would be more dramatic, discovering there was a creator, or finding some bacteria on mars? Not that the discovery of life on Mars or any other place for that matter would alter truth in the slightest.
    - Strilanc 13y ago
      - How is a one billion dollar grant going to make progress on discovering if there was a creator? - How much evidence do we expect to get for a billion dollars? A decibel? A hundred decibels? - Would sufficient evidence either way come about anyways, through other human endeavors?
      - ygmelnikova 13y ago
        Now apply that same logic to the pursuit of life on other worlds.
        Strilanc 13y ago
        - I don't have the expertise to list off the progress, but a lot of questions about water seem to have been answered. We're ahead of where we started, which is more than I'd expect from a billion dollars spent on searching for a designer (well, to be fair, I'd expect it to help progress in biology; but we could just focus the money on that and do better). - Assuming we started at 1:1 odds for long-term presence of water, and moved to 100:1 odds, that's twenty decibels on that particular question (and there are others). Again, way higher than I'd expect on designer research. - Probably not. I'm not sure I why you said to apply the same logic to the pursuit of life on other worlds. We're clearly discovering things. Plenty of people say the value of discovering those things is low, but I didn't mention value-of-information.
  - ygmelnikova 13y ago
    Even if life is found on Mars, the human race has lost it's right to celebrate. Every 3.6 seconds some child dies of starvation here on Earth. How many children can you feed with $400,000,000+? http://goo.gl/s46ol http://goo.gl/s46ol
johnohara 13y ago
Our solar system is old and by comparison our species has been here for mere fractions of a millisecond. Say what you will, but those machines rolling around Mars, navigating terrain, taking pictures, analyzing samples, using sunlight to recharge, sending data to earth via radio, and countless other capabilities, are a celebration of human intelligence.
RKoutnik 13y ago
In the midst of the PRISIM NSA fiasco, it's amazing to see just how awesome we can be with technology when we put our minds to it. Despite big sister Curiosity showing off, it's incredible that this came from Opportunity, a rover we've had on Mars for a decade! My favorite part: > Opportunity is poised to break the international record for distance traveled on another world during the drive to Solander Point. Incredible. Just incredible.
mnemonicsloth 13y ago
Related: Technological Requirements for Terraforming Mars (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm) The author, Robert Zubrin, also developed the Mars-mission plan Elon Musk seems to be following. (Zubrin's book also paints a fascinating picture of what's wrong with NASA: http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-Planet/dp/0684835509 http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-Planet/dp/0684835...) Quotes from the Terraforming paper: "drastic modification of Martian conditions ... using 21st century technology." "Humans... would require breathing gear, but pressure suits would be unnecessary" "Average temperatures could be above the freezing point of water for significant regions during portions of the year, enabling the growth of plant life in the open."

77 points by smaili 13y ago

ygmelnikova 13y ago

Look.. Life on Mars! Oh wait, no. Look! Life on Mars! Ah, never mind. Ad infinitum

InclinedPlane 13y ago
Science isn't just some magical box that you press a button on and get definitive answers out of, it's a process. Sometimes it's frustrating to watch that process narrow in on answers, but that's the nature of discovery. So far as I know there's only ever been one serious claim for life on Mars (the Alan Hills Mars meteorite claim from the 90s). What has been happening recently has been more and more evidence about the conditions of ancient Mars, especially in relation to the long-term presence of water. We've known for a long time that Mars has had liquid water on it in the past, what we haven't known is how much and for how long and under what conditions. We've known more recently that Mars still contains a substantial amount of sub-surface water ice over much of its area. And we've learned more recently that Mars appears to have had sufficient water to form long-lived lakes and rivers, long enough to allow the formation of both rounded river rocks and pebbles as well as conglomerate rocks made up of those but also hydrate minerals that can only form in conditions of near neutral pH and low salinity. These are big discoveries, even though from a certain perspective they may seem like yet another "water on Mars!" story. These discoveries are painting a picture of ancient Mars that was not just occasionally wet or perhaps a hellscape Mars covered with brackish or boiling lakes but an almost familiar Mars with lakes and rivers that would be nearly drinkable for humans and that lasted millions of years at least. Certainly conditions that lots of Earth-bound life would find it quite easy to live in. And that provides the tantalizing hope that perhaps some form of life arose on Mars and survived for a time and perhaps lives still in some sheltered underground areas. It's not evidence or proof of life, it's the hint of a possibility. But again, that's the way science works. You narrow down possibilities and provide hints for further investigations.
- ygmelnikova 13y ago
  'may', 'tantalizing hope', 'perhaps'... What about 'maybe not', 'doubtful', 'perhaps not'... is that any less scientific? Imagine applying for a $1B grant to study the possibility of a designer? What would be more dramatic, discovering there was a creator, or finding some bacteria on mars? Not that the discovery of life on Mars or any other place for that matter would alter truth in the slightest.
  - Strilanc 13y ago
    - How is a one billion dollar grant going to make progress on discovering if there was a creator? - How much evidence do we expect to get for a billion dollars? A decibel? A hundred decibels? - Would sufficient evidence either way come about anyways, through other human endeavors?
    - ygmelnikova 13y ago
      Now apply that same logic to the pursuit of life on other worlds.
      - Strilanc 13y ago
        - I don't have the expertise to list off the progress, but a lot of questions about water seem to have been answered. We're ahead of where we started, which is more than I'd expect from a billion dollars spent on searching for a designer (well, to be fair, I'd expect it to help progress in biology; but we could just focus the money on that and do better). - Assuming we started at 1:1 odds for long-term presence of water, and moved to 100:1 odds, that's twenty decibels on that particular question (and there are others). Again, way higher than I'd expect on designer research. - Probably not. I'm not sure I why you said to apply the same logic to the pursuit of life on other worlds. We're clearly discovering things. Plenty of people say the value of discovering those things is low, but I didn't mention value-of-information.
- ygmelnikova 13y ago
  Even if life is found on Mars, the human race has lost it's right to celebrate. Every 3.6 seconds some child dies of starvation here on Earth. How many children can you feed with $400,000,000+? http://goo.gl/s46ol http://goo.gl/s46ol

johnohara 13y ago

Our solar system is old and by comparison our species has been here for mere fractions of a millisecond. Say what you will, but those machines rolling around Mars, navigating terrain, taking pictures, analyzing samples, using sunlight to recharge, sending data to earth via radio, and countless other capabilities, are a celebration of human intelligence.

RKoutnik 13y ago

In the midst of the PRISIM NSA fiasco, it's amazing to see just how awesome we can be with technology when we put our minds to it. Despite big sister Curiosity showing off, it's incredible that this came from Opportunity, a rover we've had on Mars for a decade! My favorite part: > Opportunity is poised to break the international record for distance traveled on another world during the drive to Solander Point. Incredible. Just incredible.

mnemonicsloth 13y ago

Related: Technological Requirements for Terraforming Mars (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm) The author, Robert Zubrin, also developed the Mars-mission plan Elon Musk seems to be following. (Zubrin's book also paints a fascinating picture of what's wrong with NASA: http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-Planet/dp/0684835509 http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-Planet/dp/0684835...) Quotes from the Terraforming paper: "drastic modification of Martian conditions ... using 21st century technology." "Humans... would require breathing gear, but pressure suits would be unnecessary" "Average temperatures could be above the freezing point of water for significant regions during portions of the year, enabling the growth of plant life in the open."