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A picky hetero woman doesn't magically become gay. If you're equally attracted to men and women but only have sexual relations with members of one group, you a

A picky hetero woman doesn't magically become gay. If you're equally attracted to men and women but only have sexual relations with members of one group, you are bi. There certainly is a continuum from straight to gay. Plenty of people have tried to "cure" gays, including some unhappy with their own orientation. These efforts are failing, suggesting where we are born on this continuum is not in our control to change. If you feel like you are able to change your orientation, it may be that you fall closer to the middle of the spectrum than most. Do you believe it was a choice or your environment that most shaped your orientation?

sp332 13y ago
I think the concept of orientation is so simplistic that it is useless in any practical situation. The people that I am attracted to are women. That doesn't mean I am attracted to all women. It also doesn't mean that I would want to (or choose to) have sex with any particular woman, even ones I'm attracted to at any given time. It especially doesn't mean that a person's body is the only determinant in whether I am attracted to them!
- chipsy 13y ago
  The asexual community has put a great deal of thought into how to define various kinds of attraction. For a starting place: http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Lexicon http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Lexicon
- jules 13y ago
  I don't understand what's the trouble here. You say "the people that I am attracted to are women". Hence, assuming you are a male, you are heterosexual. Nothing about being a heterosexual male implies that you are attracted to all women, and nothing about being a homosexual male implies that you are attracted to all males, and nothing about being a bisexual male implies that you are attracted to all males and females. Now it's certainly the case that these three words do not describe everything completely, since for instance you can have a bisexual person who is mostly attracted to females and occasionally attracted to males. That doesn't mean that the terms are useless. The terms 'alive' and 'dead' have the same problem: there is a grey area between them. Doesn't mean that those concepts are useless.
  - sp332 13y ago
    OK, pretty much with you so far. Now I'm trying to show that the choice of whom to have sex with is not at all the same thing as the non-choice of whom to be attracted to. Even gay people have the choice not to have sex with people of the same gender, exactly the same way straight people have the choice not to have sex with people of the opposite gender.
    - tommorris 13y ago
      True but obvious. What interesting implications do you think this has for the argument around either sexual orientation or discrimination? Because I can't really see one. Nutters who leave nail bombs in gay bars are still going to do so regardless of whether I choose to have sex or not. If I have a non-sexual romantic relationship with someone, and we walk through the park holding hands, I still have to worry about some crazy person coming along and being a shitbag about it. If I disclose my sexual orientation, I still have to worry about discrimination in the workplace and housing provision and so on. The issues don't go away just because one is not actively having sex.
    - jules 13y ago
      Of course? Gay or straight is who you're attracted to, not who you have sex with. And this is not at all what you were saying further up in the tread? You were talking about attraction, not who you have sex with. I think everybody pretty much agrees that who you have sex with is a choice (except for the issue of whether free will exists at all). So far the evidence points to that being gay or straight, that is, who you're attracted to, is at least for the most part not a choice.
      - sp332 13y ago
        I agree there have been a lot of topics in this thread :) But my point way back up at the top is just this: If being gay is defined by who you're attracted to, and "who you're attracted to" can change, then "being gay" is probably not something hardwired into you before you are born. Correlate, sure. Not something you can consciously control, sure. But I really think it's something that must be taken on a moment-by-moment basis, not a lifetime-by-lifetime basis.
- tommorris 13y ago
  I fail to see how the concept of sexual orientation "is so simplistic that it is useless in any practical situation". Okay, so you are straight and I'm gay. I can give you a very practical situation: I want to meet someone to have a relationship or just some casual sex with. So I go to a gay bar. Okay, not everyone there will be to my taste, some won't be attractive to me, others won't find me attractive. But we're all on the same page about the wanting-to-have-sex-with-other-dudes thing (except, of course, the straight dudes who go to gay bars to seduce the women who go to gay bars because they aren't filled with douchebags, except they now are because word got out... oh god, kill me now). Without that shared property, any potential sexual or romantic endeavour would be rather fruitless. That's a fairly practical situation which a shared concept of sexual orientation rather helps with. Hell, if someone made an app that led you voluntarily share your sexual orientation via Google Glass so that others could see you marked as straight or gay or bi... killer app right there. ;)

sp332 13y ago

I think the concept of orientation is so simplistic that it is useless in any practical situation. The people that I am attracted to are women. That doesn't mean I am attracted to all women. It also doesn't mean that I would want to (or choose to) have sex with any particular woman, even ones I'm attracted to at any given time. It especially doesn't mean that a person's body is the only determinant in whether I am attracted to them!

chipsy 13y ago
The asexual community has put a great deal of thought into how to define various kinds of attraction. For a starting place: http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Lexicon http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Lexicon
jules 13y ago
I don't understand what's the trouble here. You say "the people that I am attracted to are women". Hence, assuming you are a male, you are heterosexual. Nothing about being a heterosexual male implies that you are attracted to all women, and nothing about being a homosexual male implies that you are attracted to all males, and nothing about being a bisexual male implies that you are attracted to all males and females. Now it's certainly the case that these three words do not describe everything completely, since for instance you can have a bisexual person who is mostly attracted to females and occasionally attracted to males. That doesn't mean that the terms are useless. The terms 'alive' and 'dead' have the same problem: there is a grey area between them. Doesn't mean that those concepts are useless.
- sp332 13y ago
  OK, pretty much with you so far. Now I'm trying to show that the choice of whom to have sex with is not at all the same thing as the non-choice of whom to be attracted to. Even gay people have the choice not to have sex with people of the same gender, exactly the same way straight people have the choice not to have sex with people of the opposite gender.
  - tommorris 13y ago
    True but obvious. What interesting implications do you think this has for the argument around either sexual orientation or discrimination? Because I can't really see one. Nutters who leave nail bombs in gay bars are still going to do so regardless of whether I choose to have sex or not. If I have a non-sexual romantic relationship with someone, and we walk through the park holding hands, I still have to worry about some crazy person coming along and being a shitbag about it. If I disclose my sexual orientation, I still have to worry about discrimination in the workplace and housing provision and so on. The issues don't go away just because one is not actively having sex.
  - jules 13y ago
    Of course? Gay or straight is who you're attracted to, not who you have sex with. And this is not at all what you were saying further up in the tread? You were talking about attraction, not who you have sex with. I think everybody pretty much agrees that who you have sex with is a choice (except for the issue of whether free will exists at all). So far the evidence points to that being gay or straight, that is, who you're attracted to, is at least for the most part not a choice.
    - sp332 13y ago
      I agree there have been a lot of topics in this thread :) But my point way back up at the top is just this: If being gay is defined by who you're attracted to, and "who you're attracted to" can change, then "being gay" is probably not something hardwired into you before you are born. Correlate, sure. Not something you can consciously control, sure. But I really think it's something that must be taken on a moment-by-moment basis, not a lifetime-by-lifetime basis.
tommorris 13y ago
I fail to see how the concept of sexual orientation "is so simplistic that it is useless in any practical situation". Okay, so you are straight and I'm gay. I can give you a very practical situation: I want to meet someone to have a relationship or just some casual sex with. So I go to a gay bar. Okay, not everyone there will be to my taste, some won't be attractive to me, others won't find me attractive. But we're all on the same page about the wanting-to-have-sex-with-other-dudes thing (except, of course, the straight dudes who go to gay bars to seduce the women who go to gay bars because they aren't filled with douchebags, except they now are because word got out... oh god, kill me now). Without that shared property, any potential sexual or romantic endeavour would be rather fruitless. That's a fairly practical situation which a shared concept of sexual orientation rather helps with. Hell, if someone made an app that led you voluntarily share your sexual orientation via Google Glass so that others could see you marked as straight or gay or bi... killer app right there. ;)