4 ms·

Wouldn't IPV6 just make overlay networks easier to build? No more NAT or UPNP. I would want to build on top of something stable, not some proprietary standard

by jiggy2011 13y ago

Wouldn't IPV6 just make overlay networks easier to build? No more NAT or UPNP. I would want to build on top of something stable, not some proprietary standard that could change next year.

tptacek 13y ago
* If IPv6 is cost-effective to deploy, sure, it's great. * The point of overlays is to moot the question of what IP connectivity you have; to provide "the full Internet" to people who only have NAT IPv4. * Whether you build it on IPv6 or on IPv4, an overlay is in some sense "proprietary". * But who's to say the most successful overlays won't be based on open source projects?
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Open source project sounds more likely, though you did say "startup". Startups don't seem to be rushing to build network infrastructure (apart from their own). Still , I struggle to imagine how such a network might work. Things like Kademlia seem inefficient and inflexible for general use. My ISP has the technology and infrastructure in place to make sure that when I connect to 184.172.10.74 it actually goes to the correct place. They seem ideally suited for this because they have the physical wires. How could I be sure I was talking to the right endpoint on an overlay network? PKI? Do I have to choose an overlay provider to route my packets around?
  - ay 13y ago
    http://www.epostmail.org&#x2F http://www.epostmail.org/ - seemed like an interesting technology, at least by reading the papers. Unfortunately getting it to run involved sacrificing at least a dozen newborn animals - which is maybe the reason it never went up. Also, of course the mail delivery took tens of minutes even in a trivial ring of 4 machines connected on the local LAN. Maybe I had something wrong in the setup, though.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    I'm really burying the lede on my crazy dream, because: The great thing about overlay networks is you don't need anyone's permission to build them. All you need is an app that really benefits from the advantages of an overlay network, some of which include: * Point-to-multipoint or multipoint-multipoint delivery (ie, multicast) * Logical addressing decoupled from network topology * All points rendezvous between nodes that don't have inbound connectivity because of firewalls I agree with you that it's unlikely anyone will be successful building this as a product that is simply "new Internet"; what I think is more likely is that people will starting having more and more Skype-like successes by ignoring the "rules" of IPv4 connectivity and routing around them in the "application layer"† like the brain damage they are. † ... which is a stupid term that blinds people to how much power we have as developers
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

Wouldn't IPV6 just make overlay networks easier to build? No more NAT or UPNP. I would want to build on top of something stable, not some proprietary standard that could change next year.

tptacek 13y ago

* If IPv6 is cost-effective to deploy, sure, it's great. * The point of overlays is to moot the question of what IP connectivity you have; to provide "the full Internet" to people who only have NAT IPv4. * Whether you build it on IPv6 or on IPv4, an overlay is in some sense "proprietary". * But who's to say the most successful overlays won't be based on open source projects?

jiggy2011 13y ago
Open source project sounds more likely, though you did say "startup". Startups don't seem to be rushing to build network infrastructure (apart from their own). Still , I struggle to imagine how such a network might work. Things like Kademlia seem inefficient and inflexible for general use. My ISP has the technology and infrastructure in place to make sure that when I connect to 184.172.10.74 it actually goes to the correct place. They seem ideally suited for this because they have the physical wires. How could I be sure I was talking to the right endpoint on an overlay network? PKI? Do I have to choose an overlay provider to route my packets around?
- ay 13y ago
  http://www.epostmail.org&#x2F http://www.epostmail.org/ - seemed like an interesting technology, at least by reading the papers. Unfortunately getting it to run involved sacrificing at least a dozen newborn animals - which is maybe the reason it never went up. Also, of course the mail delivery took tens of minutes even in a trivial ring of 4 machines connected on the local LAN. Maybe I had something wrong in the setup, though.
- tptacek 13y ago
  I'm really burying the lede on my crazy dream, because: The great thing about overlay networks is you don't need anyone's permission to build them. All you need is an app that really benefits from the advantages of an overlay network, some of which include: * Point-to-multipoint or multipoint-multipoint delivery (ie, multicast) * Logical addressing decoupled from network topology * All points rendezvous between nodes that don't have inbound connectivity because of firewalls I agree with you that it's unlikely anyone will be successful building this as a product that is simply "new Internet"; what I think is more likely is that people will starting having more and more Skype-like successes by ignoring the "rules" of IPv4 connectivity and routing around them in the "application layer"† like the brain damage they are. † ... which is a stupid term that blinds people to how much power we have as developers
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]