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Why is it that politicians think that "not listening to your phone calls" is any different than tracking everything about your phone calls Because there's a hu

Why is it that politicians think that "not listening to your phone calls" is any different than tracking everything about your phone calls Because there's a huge material difference, maybe?

esrauch 13y ago
Who I am calling is the vast majority of what I want to be private, what I say to them is often obvious given who I am speaking to.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  For a lot of calls, sure. You can guess that calls between me and my mechanic are probably about my car. Calls between me and my wife when I'm out of town? You could guess what we're talking about, but I don't want you to listen in.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    Yet the fact that you do or do not call your wife when you're out of town speaks volumes about the strength and nature of your relationship, information which could be used against you if in the wrong hands.
jlgreco 13y ago
There is a "huge material difference" between touching your sibling and merely hovering your finger a millimeter over them.
lukejduncan 13y ago
If I stretch my imagination I can see the argument, but I don't buy it (IMHO). I think the spirit of why the privacy of the content of my conversation is important equally applies to any information about that conversation. If my conversation is privileged, why shouldn't my meta-data be? What's the difference? If AT&T provided a service that cataloged and tagged my conversation for retrieval based on analysis of the content (and I opted into this) would that meta-data also be available to the government?
- MartinCron 13y ago
  If you're having trouble stretching your imagination, just go back to your teenage years. Mom: Who was that on the phone? You: My (girl|boy)friend. Mom: What exactly did you talk about?
  - harryh 13y ago
    Or even better: Mom: I see here from looking at the phone bill that you were talking for your (girl|boy)friend. You: ... Mom: What exactly did you talk about? You: I'm not telling! The metadata isn't your information, it's the phone company's. The conversation is yours.
    - unclebucknasty 13y ago
      But, why is the conversation technically yours? What is materially different about the metadata (originated by the callers) and the voice data from the point of view of the phone company? It is all data flowing over their network, which is created by the private parties who use their service. I honestly don't get this exception that's made for metadata where the phone company is concerned.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > But, why is the conversation technically yours? Because the metadata is information that the phone company has to know in order to provide you the service and to bill you for it, and therefore cannot be information in which the parties to the conversation have an expectation of privacy. The content of the conversation, OTOH, is not information that the company needs to have to provide and bill for the service, and therefore can still be information in which the participants have a legal expectation of privacy.
        nitrogen 13y ago
        Because the metadata is information that the phone company has to know in order to provide you the service and to bill you for it, and therefore cannot be information in which the parties to the conversation have an expectation of privacy. This doesn't follow. If you are suing/being sued, your lawyer needs to know everything about your case to mount a proper offense/defense, but you still have an expectation of privacy. Similarly, your doctor needs to know everything about your medical history in order to treat you, yet you have an expectation of privacy there as well.

Why is it that politicians think that "not listening to your phone calls" is any different than tracking everything about your phone calls Because there's a huge material difference, maybe?

esrauch 13y ago

Who I am calling is the vast majority of what I want to be private, what I say to them is often obvious given who I am speaking to.

MartinCron 13y ago
For a lot of calls, sure. You can guess that calls between me and my mechanic are probably about my car. Calls between me and my wife when I'm out of town? You could guess what we're talking about, but I don't want you to listen in.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  Yet the fact that you do or do not call your wife when you're out of town speaks volumes about the strength and nature of your relationship, information which could be used against you if in the wrong hands.

jlgreco 13y ago

There is a "huge material difference" between touching your sibling and merely hovering your finger a millimeter over them.

lukejduncan 13y ago

If I stretch my imagination I can see the argument, but I don't buy it (IMHO). I think the spirit of why the privacy of the content of my conversation is important equally applies to any information about that conversation. If my conversation is privileged, why shouldn't my meta-data be? What's the difference? If AT&T provided a service that cataloged and tagged my conversation for retrieval based on analysis of the content (and I opted into this) would that meta-data also be available to the government?

MartinCron 13y ago
If you're having trouble stretching your imagination, just go back to your teenage years. Mom: Who was that on the phone? You: My (girl|boy)friend. Mom: What exactly did you talk about?
- harryh 13y ago
  Or even better: Mom: I see here from looking at the phone bill that you were talking for your (girl|boy)friend. You: ... Mom: What exactly did you talk about? You: I'm not telling! The metadata isn't your information, it's the phone company's. The conversation is yours.
  - unclebucknasty 13y ago
    But, why is the conversation technically yours? What is materially different about the metadata (originated by the callers) and the voice data from the point of view of the phone company? It is all data flowing over their network, which is created by the private parties who use their service. I honestly don't get this exception that's made for metadata where the phone company is concerned.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > But, why is the conversation technically yours? Because the metadata is information that the phone company has to know in order to provide you the service and to bill you for it, and therefore cannot be information in which the parties to the conversation have an expectation of privacy. The content of the conversation, OTOH, is not information that the company needs to have to provide and bill for the service, and therefore can still be information in which the participants have a legal expectation of privacy.
      - nitrogen 13y ago
        Because the metadata is information that the phone company has to know in order to provide you the service and to bill you for it, and therefore cannot be information in which the parties to the conversation have an expectation of privacy. This doesn't follow. If you are suing/being sued, your lawyer needs to know everything about your case to mount a proper offense/defense, but you still have an expectation of privacy. Similarly, your doctor needs to know everything about your medical history in order to treat you, yet you have an expectation of privacy there as well.