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I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. Plus his argument was actually better. You can cho

by pbhj 17y ago

I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. Plus his argument was actually better. You can choose not to be offended, you can't choose not to die when someone kills you.

menloparkbum 17y ago
I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. That was the point. I know it's not cool to be snarky on HN but I can't resist: "WOOOOOSH!"
raganwald 17y ago
You can choose not to be offended I have tried my whole life not to be offended, frightened, disturbed, or made uncomfortable by racism. I have failed for forty-six straight years.
- Tichy 17y ago
  What kind of discrimination is there against women, in your opinion. Serious question - I am not sure if men actually have the better deal in our world... Not claiming that there is no discrimination against women, but I also don't think it is obvious that there is. I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example.
  - ericb 17y ago
    My wife is an IT manager. She knows Unix, can code, debug nasty windows problems, and gets shit done. Still, coworkers, new hires, and people who don't know her try to address her male subordinates during escalated issues assuming the men are the ones who know what they're doing. >> I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example. I'm guessing you're a young man. Are you sure you're really in a good position to claim that? She often thinks of leaving the field because over time, it wears at her. I can give dozens of other examples.
    - Tichy 17y ago
      Not that young, but it is true that I don't know many women in IT. Most men in IT I know would be thrilled to have female colleagues, though. I am not "claiming", I just resent taking things at face value. Possibly people are not used to competent IT women, because they are rare. But does it really take the form of "no, we don't want this person on the team, she is a woman" (without knowing her)? I doubt that - and if there are companies like that, it is their loss (not all men get hired by all companies, either - and good IT staff is rare in general). Also, bias against the tech skills is hardly the same as sexism of the "she only is good for porn" kind.
      - silencio 17y ago
        I've had that happen to me before. You'd imagine if that were really the problem that they'd find a more PC way to tell me they don't want a woman on the team so I don't then go on a huge rant about gender discrimination, but some people have said it to my face that that is why. Yeah, it's their loss, and I don't deal with them after that. I'd have to be delusional to say that discrimination wasn't a problem. I've cried my tear ducts dry and screamed my lungs out before over the unbelievable things that have happened to me that I never saw happen to any of my male friends just in tech alone. My boyfriend gets tired of hearing my stories of my frustrations over these things - he doesn't deal with anything even close to them except when I'm with him at an event (and THAT is a whole 'nother world of discrimination right there). I had to learn to just deal with some inevitabilities of being female in such an imbalanced industry. I also have to admit that in the course of dealing with these inevitabilities I've pretended to be a guy online very frequently and still do because it's just so much easier. I've also learned this nasty habit of becoming a total jackass in the face of other jackassery usually in the form of sexual harassment by people who think it's okay to harass a girl because they're behind a layer of pseudoanonymity. Most men are really nice. Most men will hold open doors for me and treat me as a colleague and help me out when I'm having a problem, and I've had male friends who've mentored and supported me and my decisions over the years and more. Most of them, I would not mind working with - in fact, I would be glad to work with. But there is always someone out there somewhere who thinks discrimination and harassment is okay, and eventually, you just get really, really, really, really, really tired of them. It all builds up. Can't forget that all this is on top of the annoyances in the non-tech world that one deals with every day just by being female, which is enough to drive a lot of women crazy. Once I've fingered my knitting needles and my knife on my keychain to use as weapons because an annoying guy wouldn't stop following me around saying something about taking my clothes off. Just last week, I drove around in circles near my house because there was a creepy guy in an Audi who had been following me by foot from a mall and then in his car for a very random and unlikely 5+ mile drive (think 4 left turns in a row followed by going up and down the same street for half a mile), and I went as far as to call the cops with his license plate #. How many guys can tell you that they've had stuff like THAT happen to them? Pretty rare :(
- zcrar70 17y ago
  Any kind of discrimination based on the differences between a group and an individual should be actively discouraged (be it on race, sex, weight, nationality etc.) It's the mark of a primitive and uncivilized society.

by pbhj 17y ago

menloparkbum 17y ago

I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. That was the point. I know it's not cool to be snarky on HN but I can't resist: "WOOOOOSH!"

raganwald 17y ago

You can choose not to be offended I have tried my whole life not to be offended, frightened, disturbed, or made uncomfortable by racism. I have failed for forty-six straight years.

Tichy 17y ago
What kind of discrimination is there against women, in your opinion. Serious question - I am not sure if men actually have the better deal in our world... Not claiming that there is no discrimination against women, but I also don't think it is obvious that there is. I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example.
- ericb 17y ago
  My wife is an IT manager. She knows Unix, can code, debug nasty windows problems, and gets shit done. Still, coworkers, new hires, and people who don't know her try to address her male subordinates during escalated issues assuming the men are the ones who know what they're doing. >> I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example. I'm guessing you're a young man. Are you sure you're really in a good position to claim that? She often thinks of leaving the field because over time, it wears at her. I can give dozens of other examples.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    Not that young, but it is true that I don't know many women in IT. Most men in IT I know would be thrilled to have female colleagues, though. I am not "claiming", I just resent taking things at face value. Possibly people are not used to competent IT women, because they are rare. But does it really take the form of "no, we don't want this person on the team, she is a woman" (without knowing her)? I doubt that - and if there are companies like that, it is their loss (not all men get hired by all companies, either - and good IT staff is rare in general). Also, bias against the tech skills is hardly the same as sexism of the "she only is good for porn" kind.
    - silencio 17y ago
      I've had that happen to me before. You'd imagine if that were really the problem that they'd find a more PC way to tell me they don't want a woman on the team so I don't then go on a huge rant about gender discrimination, but some people have said it to my face that that is why. Yeah, it's their loss, and I don't deal with them after that. I'd have to be delusional to say that discrimination wasn't a problem. I've cried my tear ducts dry and screamed my lungs out before over the unbelievable things that have happened to me that I never saw happen to any of my male friends just in tech alone. My boyfriend gets tired of hearing my stories of my frustrations over these things - he doesn't deal with anything even close to them except when I'm with him at an event (and THAT is a whole 'nother world of discrimination right there). I had to learn to just deal with some inevitabilities of being female in such an imbalanced industry. I also have to admit that in the course of dealing with these inevitabilities I've pretended to be a guy online very frequently and still do because it's just so much easier. I've also learned this nasty habit of becoming a total jackass in the face of other jackassery usually in the form of sexual harassment by people who think it's okay to harass a girl because they're behind a layer of pseudoanonymity. Most men are really nice. Most men will hold open doors for me and treat me as a colleague and help me out when I'm having a problem, and I've had male friends who've mentored and supported me and my decisions over the years and more. Most of them, I would not mind working with - in fact, I would be glad to work with. But there is always someone out there somewhere who thinks discrimination and harassment is okay, and eventually, you just get really, really, really, really, really tired of them. It all builds up. Can't forget that all this is on top of the annoyances in the non-tech world that one deals with every day just by being female, which is enough to drive a lot of women crazy. Once I've fingered my knitting needles and my knife on my keychain to use as weapons because an annoying guy wouldn't stop following me around saying something about taking my clothes off. Just last week, I drove around in circles near my house because there was a creepy guy in an Audi who had been following me by foot from a mall and then in his car for a very random and unlikely 5+ mile drive (think 4 left turns in a row followed by going up and down the same street for half a mile), and I went as far as to call the cops with his license plate #. How many guys can tell you that they've had stuff like THAT happen to them? Pretty rare :(
zcrar70 17y ago
Any kind of discrimination based on the differences between a group and an individual should be actively discouraged (be it on race, sex, weight, nationality etc.) It's the mark of a primitive and uncivilized society.