5 ms·

Ask HN: The government has been exposed now what?

16 points by esalazar 13y ago

We now know that our rights and privacy are being violated. What are the next steps? How do we protect and defend ourselves?

kunai 13y ago
We cannot. Ultimately, it boils down to the sheer audacity of the government and the fearful (and sometimes, falsely patriotic) apathy of our fellow citizens. We here on Hacker News are progessives who believe in liberty, freedom, choice, and equality for everyone. Unfortunately, outside of our little bubble here online, the rest of the world is not the same. There are still millions of citizens, blissfully unaware, perhaps due to either ignorance or fear. Our job now is to educate these people and teach them that the government is an entity to be trusted no longer. No longer will elections entail cheering on corrupt candidates who break promises regardless of the political side they take. No longer will our citizens stand helpless as the entrenchment of totalitarianism continues perpetually. No longer will we be a slave to the whims and fancies of our government. It's time the government worked for us. I think the bozos in command have all but forgotten that they are nothing but LOWLY SERVANTS, not saints who can deliver promises and change set upon a lie. We need to change that. Call your senator. Email your legislature. Tell them your utter dissatisfaction with this issue. Tell your relatives. If they say they don't care, follow them around everything they do and ask if they like that. If they don't, tell them this is what the government is secretly doing. If they still don't, repeat. Tell your friends, your relatives, your brothers and sisters, to stand up to the oppressive government. Don't be hotheaded; now is not the time for mercurial emotion. Now is the time for reason. If your congresspeople cooperate, good. If they brush you off, say "fuck you" and hang up (I'm being blunt here), and vote for a third-party candidate the next time round. We can make a difference. We will defeat the Empire, the evil, dark Empire founded by a father whose progeny has gone to the dark side. Let's do this shit.
- w_t_payne 13y ago
  Sorry, but you cannot and should not fight. The asymmetry in power is too great. The last thing you want to do is find yourself labelled as a "troublemaker" or (worse) as an "enemy". The state has an almost unlimited capacity to ruin the lives of those whom it targets. The best, safest thing for us all is to keep quiet, stay out of politics, and learn to think carefully about what we say or do before we say or do it. If you start to act aggressively, then you run the risk of putting yourself (and the entire community) in danger. I repeat again (for emphasis): Challenging the agencies is a sure-fire way to get yourself and those around you into a whole world of trouble. Do not do it. Do not even think about doing it:- just keep your head down and keep quiet - for all our sakes.
  - PostOnce 13y ago
    The only possible outcome of such behavior is a worsening situation. How is that defensible? Nothing risked, nothing gained.
    - esalazar 13y ago
      Agreed. The only way for change is to thrash and thrash hard.
      - jf22 13y ago
        That sounds very violent...
    - w_t_payne 13y ago
      They may be bought, but they cannot be fought -- taking risks is one thing, but you need to weigh the risks and the rewards: this fight is all downside.
  - kunai 13y ago
    IF that's the risk it takes, so be it. Safety be damned; this is the welfare of my children's, your children's, and their children's, future. And our future too. We're going to be here quite a while.
    - w_t_payne 13y ago
      You are a fool and an idiot if you think that you can fight the agencies (and by extension the state) and win. 90% of winning is choosing your battles wisely - do not choose this one. You. Will. End. Up. Hurt.
      - jaworrom 13y ago
        Last I checked, there is exponentially more citizens than government officials. Most military sides with the people. A few cowards would side with the government, but most would support their fellow citizens... the government isn't all that mighty when you consider this... I dearly hope such a standoff never has to occur, as I think there are better ways to solve these issues we have with our bloated government.
tokenadult 13y ago
There is a model for people winning freedom when they never had it before. It has been applied in some countries. It takes courage and solidarity, but people power can gain freedom. The most thoughtful writer on the model that works is Gene Glass of the Albert Einstein Institute. The institute has several different publications available for free download in multiple languages, http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html among which I especially recommend From Dictatorship to Democracy: A Conceptual Framework for Liberation http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations/org/FDTD.pdf http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations/org/FDTD.pdf as a how-to guide for gaining freedom even when the dictators are willing to torture and kill to limit freedom. (I have seen one country make a successful transition from dictatorship to democracy largely by following this conceptual framework.)
Duhveed 13y ago
They've got the will and the power to do these things and frankly there's probably not much we can do about it. The key thing to do is to realize that the Constitution was the mistake that gave them their power. When they collapse under their own weight, remember the lesson and start listening to the folks with the ideas about how to provide services to the community (roads, security, etc.) without a government to manage it and without waiving your property rights in the process.
joonix 13y ago
What most people are missing here is that the average American a) doesn't care b) doesn't actually know what their rights are c) is happy to allow this in the name of "anti-terrorism." Seriously, step away from the internet/reddit/HN/blogs and go out on the street and talk to an average Joe/Jane about where this ranks on their priorities. People who think there will be a "revolution" over something like this are seriously misguided. Revolutions happen when people are hungry. The average American is not starving and will never be rioting in the streets over phone records.
ixacto 13y ago
You can fight and win. The government is not omnipotent. Just don't expect to run a company under the protection of the government. 1. Use Linux or a similar OS and use full-disk encryption. Truecrypt has a hidden os function built in (http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=hidden-operating-system http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=hidden-operating-system). Maybe the government knows how to crack it, but they won't for bring it out for minor things like kiddy porn, drug trafficking, lone-wolf terrorists. The only time this gets used is when there is a suitcase nuke en-route to DC. 2. The USA lost in Vietnam. The USA/British Empire/USSR have lost in Afghanistan. With the support of the local population, the army is useless to stop revolutionaries. The population is not going to care about government crimes until the government is shooting people/turns off cellphones&tv&internet. When that happens you have what happened in the Middle East and might happen in Turkey.

16 points by esalazar 13y ago

We now know that our rights and privacy are being violated. What are the next steps? How do we protect and defend ourselves?

kunai 13y ago

We cannot. Ultimately, it boils down to the sheer audacity of the government and the fearful (and sometimes, falsely patriotic) apathy of our fellow citizens. We here on Hacker News are progessives who believe in liberty, freedom, choice, and equality for everyone. Unfortunately, outside of our little bubble here online, the rest of the world is not the same. There are still millions of citizens, blissfully unaware, perhaps due to either ignorance or fear. Our job now is to educate these people and teach them that the government is an entity to be trusted no longer. No longer will elections entail cheering on corrupt candidates who break promises regardless of the political side they take. No longer will our citizens stand helpless as the entrenchment of totalitarianism continues perpetually. No longer will we be a slave to the whims and fancies of our government. It's time the government worked for us. I think the bozos in command have all but forgotten that they are nothing but LOWLY SERVANTS, not saints who can deliver promises and change set upon a lie. We need to change that. Call your senator. Email your legislature. Tell them your utter dissatisfaction with this issue. Tell your relatives. If they say they don't care, follow them around everything they do and ask if they like that. If they don't, tell them this is what the government is secretly doing. If they still don't, repeat. Tell your friends, your relatives, your brothers and sisters, to stand up to the oppressive government. Don't be hotheaded; now is not the time for mercurial emotion. Now is the time for reason. If your congresspeople cooperate, good. If they brush you off, say "fuck you" and hang up (I'm being blunt here), and vote for a third-party candidate the next time round. We can make a difference. We will defeat the Empire, the evil, dark Empire founded by a father whose progeny has gone to the dark side. Let's do this shit.

w_t_payne 13y ago
Sorry, but you cannot and should not fight. The asymmetry in power is too great. The last thing you want to do is find yourself labelled as a "troublemaker" or (worse) as an "enemy". The state has an almost unlimited capacity to ruin the lives of those whom it targets. The best, safest thing for us all is to keep quiet, stay out of politics, and learn to think carefully about what we say or do before we say or do it. If you start to act aggressively, then you run the risk of putting yourself (and the entire community) in danger. I repeat again (for emphasis): Challenging the agencies is a sure-fire way to get yourself and those around you into a whole world of trouble. Do not do it. Do not even think about doing it:- just keep your head down and keep quiet - for all our sakes.
- PostOnce 13y ago
  The only possible outcome of such behavior is a worsening situation. How is that defensible? Nothing risked, nothing gained.
  - esalazar 13y ago
    Agreed. The only way for change is to thrash and thrash hard.
    - jf22 13y ago
      That sounds very violent...
  - w_t_payne 13y ago
    They may be bought, but they cannot be fought -- taking risks is one thing, but you need to weigh the risks and the rewards: this fight is all downside.
- kunai 13y ago
  IF that's the risk it takes, so be it. Safety be damned; this is the welfare of my children's, your children's, and their children's, future. And our future too. We're going to be here quite a while.
  - w_t_payne 13y ago
    You are a fool and an idiot if you think that you can fight the agencies (and by extension the state) and win. 90% of winning is choosing your battles wisely - do not choose this one. You. Will. End. Up. Hurt.
    - jaworrom 13y ago
      Last I checked, there is exponentially more citizens than government officials. Most military sides with the people. A few cowards would side with the government, but most would support their fellow citizens... the government isn't all that mighty when you consider this... I dearly hope such a standoff never has to occur, as I think there are better ways to solve these issues we have with our bloated government.

tokenadult 13y ago

There is a model for people winning freedom when they never had it before. It has been applied in some countries. It takes courage and solidarity, but people power can gain freedom. The most thoughtful writer on the model that works is Gene Glass of the Albert Einstein Institute. The institute has several different publications available for free download in multiple languages, http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html among which I especially recommend From Dictatorship to Democracy: A Conceptual Framework for Liberation http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations/org/FDTD.pdf http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations/org/FDTD.pdf as a how-to guide for gaining freedom even when the dictators are willing to torture and kill to limit freedom. (I have seen one country make a successful transition from dictatorship to democracy largely by following this conceptual framework.)

Duhveed 13y ago

They've got the will and the power to do these things and frankly there's probably not much we can do about it. The key thing to do is to realize that the Constitution was the mistake that gave them their power. When they collapse under their own weight, remember the lesson and start listening to the folks with the ideas about how to provide services to the community (roads, security, etc.) without a government to manage it and without waiving your property rights in the process.

joonix 13y ago

What most people are missing here is that the average American a) doesn't care b) doesn't actually know what their rights are c) is happy to allow this in the name of "anti-terrorism." Seriously, step away from the internet/reddit/HN/blogs and go out on the street and talk to an average Joe/Jane about where this ranks on their priorities. People who think there will be a "revolution" over something like this are seriously misguided. Revolutions happen when people are hungry. The average American is not starving and will never be rioting in the streets over phone records.

ixacto 13y ago

You can fight and win. The government is not omnipotent. Just don't expect to run a company under the protection of the government. 1. Use Linux or a similar OS and use full-disk encryption. Truecrypt has a hidden os function built in (http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=hidden-operating-system http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=hidden-operating-system). Maybe the government knows how to crack it, but they won't for bring it out for minor things like kiddy porn, drug trafficking, lone-wolf terrorists. The only time this gets used is when there is a suitcase nuke en-route to DC. 2. The USA lost in Vietnam. The USA/British Empire/USSR have lost in Afghanistan. With the support of the local population, the army is useless to stop revolutionaries. The population is not going to care about government crimes until the government is shooting people/turns off cellphones&tv&internet. When that happens you have what happened in the Middle East and might happen in Turkey.