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I might be offended by the word "bread". Is this my problem or anyone's using that word? One cannot please everyone, and there is no need to feel sorry _every_

I might be offended by the word "bread". Is this my problem or anyone's using that word? One cannot please everyone, and there is no need to feel sorry _every_ time you fail at that.

raganwald 18y ago
This has got to be the most vacuous argument I've read on the subject. Attempting to equate a hypothetical aversion to the word "bread" with an ongoing discrimination in our society towards woman lacks new insight or intellectually challenging substance. What it really does is try to move the discussion away from real people with real feelings and real problems in our society and turn it into a game of semantics. Well, logically, what if you don't like the word "bread?" Well, logically, what if I decide to machine-gun the front row the next time I give a presentation? What right have they to life if I decide to be edgy with my art? Reductio Ad Absurdum is an absurd line of argument.
- pbhj 18y ago
  I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. Plus his argument was actually better. You can choose not to be offended, you can't choose not to die when someone kills you.
  - menloparkbum 18y ago
    I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. That was the point. I know it's not cool to be snarky on HN but I can't resist: "WOOOOOSH!"
  - raganwald 18y ago
    You can choose not to be offended I have tried my whole life not to be offended, frightened, disturbed, or made uncomfortable by racism. I have failed for forty-six straight years.
    - Tichy 18y ago
      What kind of discrimination is there against women, in your opinion. Serious question - I am not sure if men actually have the better deal in our world... Not claiming that there is no discrimination against women, but I also don't think it is obvious that there is. I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example.
      - ericb 18y ago
        My wife is an IT manager. She knows Unix, can code, debug nasty windows problems, and gets shit done. Still, coworkers, new hires, and people who don't know her try to address her male subordinates during escalated issues assuming the men are the ones who know what they're doing. >> I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example. I'm guessing you're a young man. Are you sure you're really in a good position to claim that? She often thinks of leaving the field because over time, it wears at her. I can give dozens of other examples.
        Tichy 18y ago
        Not that young, but it is true that I don't know many women in IT. Most men in IT I know would be thrilled to have female colleagues, though. I am not "claiming", I just resent taking things at face value. Possibly people are not used to competent IT women, because they are rare. But does it really take the form of "no, we don't want this person on the team, she is a woman" (without knowing her)? I doubt that - and if there are companies like that, it is their loss (not all men get hired by all companies, either - and good IT staff is rare in general). Also, bias against the tech skills is hardly the same as sexism of the "she only is good for porn" kind.
        silencio 18y ago
        I've had that happen to me before. You'd imagine if that were really the problem that they'd find a more PC way to tell me they don't want a woman on the team so I don't then go on a huge rant about gender discrimination, but some people have said it to my face that that is why. Yeah, it's their loss, and I don't deal with them after that. I'd have to be delusional to say that discrimination wasn't a problem. I've cried my tear ducts dry and screamed my lungs out before over the unbelievable things that have happened to me that I never saw happen to any of my male friends just in tech alone. My boyfriend gets tired of hearing my stories of my frustrations over these things - he doesn't deal with anything even close to them except when I'm with him at an event (and THAT is a whole 'nother world of discrimination right there). I had to learn to just deal with some inevitabilities of being female in such an imbalanced industry. I also have to admit that in the course of dealing with these inevitabilities I've pretended to be a guy online very frequently and still do because it's just so much easier. I've also learned this nasty habit of becoming a total jackass in the face of other jackassery usually in the form of sexual harassment by people who think it's okay to harass a girl because they're behind a layer of pseudoanonymity. Most men are really nice. Most men will hold open doors for me and treat me as a colleague and help me out when I'm having a problem, and I've had male friends who've mentored and supported me and my decisions over the years and more. Most of them, I would not mind working with - in fact, I would be glad to work with. But there is always someone out there somewhere who thinks discrimination and harassment is okay, and eventually, you just get really, really, really, really, really tired of them. It all builds up. Can't forget that all this is on top of the annoyances in the non-tech world that one deals with every day just by being female, which is enough to drive a lot of women crazy. Once I've fingered my knitting needles and my knife on my keychain to use as weapons because an annoying guy wouldn't stop following me around saying something about taking my clothes off. Just last week, I drove around in circles near my house because there was a creepy guy in an Audi who had been following me by foot from a mall and then in his car for a very random and unlikely 5+ mile drive (think 4 left turns in a row followed by going up and down the same street for half a mile), and I went as far as to call the cops with his license plate #. How many guys can tell you that they've had stuff like THAT happen to them? Pretty rare :(
- jibiki 18y ago
  > Reductio Ad Absurdum is an absurd line of argument. It's an effective means of chopping down very general arguments. For example, the bread argument would be relevant if someone had argued that every offended person should be appeased, always.
  - raganwald 18y ago
    I've always felt that anywhere you have an effective Reduction Ad Absurdum, there's a more effective alternative of some sort. It may be effective in some cases, but I am optimistic that it is rarely if ever the best argument. I will be specific: By "best," I mean most fruitful, most provocative, most stimulating, most interesting. I accept that it is often effective in a demagogic sense.
- rimantas 18y ago
  Remember infamous Danish cartoons? Do you think cartoonist had to apologize? Boy, did he offend someone… My point was, if someone is offended by that presentation, he (and I mean he) should have his head examined. There are people that can be offended by most ridiculous things and I am not going to consider myself responsible for all their quirks. Too much fear to offend someone just dumbs us down, makes daring thing less likely (I think it has to be someone with DHH kind of personality to create RoR) and generally leads to kind of lukewarm relationships, hypocrisy and "thermal death" of society. I am all for solving real problems, not imaginary ones. I have seen quite a few women in IT, and it did not look like they had any problems with it (suffice to say one was the head of the whole IT organization I was working for, other three - heads of departments). All were judged by the competence, not their sex. It is interesting to see that the mere idea that _maybe_, just _maybe_ women in general are not inclined for this type of work (hint: dealing with abstractions, not real people and relations) is instantly rubber-stamped as sexist. I am going to stretch it here, but why isn't anyone fighting to right the underrepresentation of males among persons giving birth? And I don't buy the reality of some "feelings" that are so much on display in this case.
  - raganwald 18y ago
    Remember infamous Danish cartoons? Do you think cartoonist had to apologize? I never saw those cartoons, so I won't comment. But I will compare this presentation to some of George Carlin's comedy, which I have heard over and over and over again. Quite a bit of it is offensive, and the offense was the point of his art, he was trying to make us take a hard look at ourselves. The difference between "art" that is intended to make us uncomfortable and this presentation is that this presentation is not making some of us uncomfortable about our sexuality as a means of giving us insight into technology. It's simply making some of us uncomfortable. If you care to show me a technology presentation that makes us uncomfortable but does so for the express purpose of provoking us to look at ourselves, I would be delighted to discuss whether it is or is not appropriate to deliver at a conference and whether apologising would or would not be in order. Until then, I do not accept the parallel.
    - rimantas 18y ago
- Tichy 18y ago
  Why is it even considered a discrimination against women?

I might be offended by the word "bread". Is this my problem or anyone's using that word? One cannot please everyone, and there is no need to feel sorry _every_ time you fail at that.

raganwald 18y ago

This has got to be the most vacuous argument I've read on the subject. Attempting to equate a hypothetical aversion to the word "bread" with an ongoing discrimination in our society towards woman lacks new insight or intellectually challenging substance. What it really does is try to move the discussion away from real people with real feelings and real problems in our society and turn it into a game of semantics. Well, logically, what if you don't like the word "bread?" Well, logically, what if I decide to machine-gun the front row the next time I give a presentation? What right have they to life if I decide to be edgy with my art? Reductio Ad Absurdum is an absurd line of argument.

pbhj 18y ago
I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. Plus his argument was actually better. You can choose not to be offended, you can't choose not to die when someone kills you.
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  I liked the way you challenged him for lacking rationale in this argument by an argument lacking rationale. That was the point. I know it's not cool to be snarky on HN but I can't resist: "WOOOOOSH!"
- raganwald 18y ago
  You can choose not to be offended I have tried my whole life not to be offended, frightened, disturbed, or made uncomfortable by racism. I have failed for forty-six straight years.
  - Tichy 18y ago
    What kind of discrimination is there against women, in your opinion. Serious question - I am not sure if men actually have the better deal in our world... Not claiming that there is no discrimination against women, but I also don't think it is obvious that there is. I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example.
    - ericb 18y ago
      My wife is an IT manager. She knows Unix, can code, debug nasty windows problems, and gets shit done. Still, coworkers, new hires, and people who don't know her try to address her male subordinates during escalated issues assuming the men are the ones who know what they're doing. >> I highly doubt discrimination is the reason behind the low numbers of women in tech, for example. I'm guessing you're a young man. Are you sure you're really in a good position to claim that? She often thinks of leaving the field because over time, it wears at her. I can give dozens of other examples.
      - Tichy 18y ago
        Not that young, but it is true that I don't know many women in IT. Most men in IT I know would be thrilled to have female colleagues, though. I am not "claiming", I just resent taking things at face value. Possibly people are not used to competent IT women, because they are rare. But does it really take the form of "no, we don't want this person on the team, she is a woman" (without knowing her)? I doubt that - and if there are companies like that, it is their loss (not all men get hired by all companies, either - and good IT staff is rare in general). Also, bias against the tech skills is hardly the same as sexism of the "she only is good for porn" kind.
        silencio 18y ago
        I've had that happen to me before. You'd imagine if that were really the problem that they'd find a more PC way to tell me they don't want a woman on the team so I don't then go on a huge rant about gender discrimination, but some people have said it to my face that that is why. Yeah, it's their loss, and I don't deal with them after that. I'd have to be delusional to say that discrimination wasn't a problem. I've cried my tear ducts dry and screamed my lungs out before over the unbelievable things that have happened to me that I never saw happen to any of my male friends just in tech alone. My boyfriend gets tired of hearing my stories of my frustrations over these things - he doesn't deal with anything even close to them except when I'm with him at an event (and THAT is a whole 'nother world of discrimination right there). I had to learn to just deal with some inevitabilities of being female in such an imbalanced industry. I also have to admit that in the course of dealing with these inevitabilities I've pretended to be a guy online very frequently and still do because it's just so much easier. I've also learned this nasty habit of becoming a total jackass in the face of other jackassery usually in the form of sexual harassment by people who think it's okay to harass a girl because they're behind a layer of pseudoanonymity. Most men are really nice. Most men will hold open doors for me and treat me as a colleague and help me out when I'm having a problem, and I've had male friends who've mentored and supported me and my decisions over the years and more. Most of them, I would not mind working with - in fact, I would be glad to work with. But there is always someone out there somewhere who thinks discrimination and harassment is okay, and eventually, you just get really, really, really, really, really tired of them. It all builds up. Can't forget that all this is on top of the annoyances in the non-tech world that one deals with every day just by being female, which is enough to drive a lot of women crazy. Once I've fingered my knitting needles and my knife on my keychain to use as weapons because an annoying guy wouldn't stop following me around saying something about taking my clothes off. Just last week, I drove around in circles near my house because there was a creepy guy in an Audi who had been following me by foot from a mall and then in his car for a very random and unlikely 5+ mile drive (think 4 left turns in a row followed by going up and down the same street for half a mile), and I went as far as to call the cops with his license plate #. How many guys can tell you that they've had stuff like THAT happen to them? Pretty rare :(
jibiki 18y ago
> Reductio Ad Absurdum is an absurd line of argument. It's an effective means of chopping down very general arguments. For example, the bread argument would be relevant if someone had argued that every offended person should be appeased, always.
- raganwald 18y ago
  I've always felt that anywhere you have an effective Reduction Ad Absurdum, there's a more effective alternative of some sort. It may be effective in some cases, but I am optimistic that it is rarely if ever the best argument. I will be specific: By "best," I mean most fruitful, most provocative, most stimulating, most interesting. I accept that it is often effective in a demagogic sense.
rimantas 18y ago
Remember infamous Danish cartoons? Do you think cartoonist had to apologize? Boy, did he offend someone… My point was, if someone is offended by that presentation, he (and I mean he) should have his head examined. There are people that can be offended by most ridiculous things and I am not going to consider myself responsible for all their quirks. Too much fear to offend someone just dumbs us down, makes daring thing less likely (I think it has to be someone with DHH kind of personality to create RoR) and generally leads to kind of lukewarm relationships, hypocrisy and "thermal death" of society. I am all for solving real problems, not imaginary ones. I have seen quite a few women in IT, and it did not look like they had any problems with it (suffice to say one was the head of the whole IT organization I was working for, other three - heads of departments). All were judged by the competence, not their sex. It is interesting to see that the mere idea that _maybe_, just _maybe_ women in general are not inclined for this type of work (hint: dealing with abstractions, not real people and relations) is instantly rubber-stamped as sexist. I am going to stretch it here, but why isn't anyone fighting to right the underrepresentation of males among persons giving birth? And I don't buy the reality of some "feelings" that are so much on display in this case.
- raganwald 18y ago
  Remember infamous Danish cartoons? Do you think cartoonist had to apologize? I never saw those cartoons, so I won't comment. But I will compare this presentation to some of George Carlin's comedy, which I have heard over and over and over again. Quite a bit of it is offensive, and the offense was the point of his art, he was trying to make us take a hard look at ourselves. The difference between "art" that is intended to make us uncomfortable and this presentation is that this presentation is not making some of us uncomfortable about our sexuality as a means of giving us insight into technology. It's simply making some of us uncomfortable. If you care to show me a technology presentation that makes us uncomfortable but does so for the express purpose of provoking us to look at ourselves, I would be delighted to discuss whether it is or is not appropriate to deliver at a conference and whether apologising would or would not be in order. Until then, I do not accept the parallel.
  - rimantas 18y ago
Tichy 18y ago
Why is it even considered a discrimination against women?