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I hate to be this guy but there are people lighting off bombs out there and as soon as a big one goes off people will demand they do a lot more than this. Would

I hate to be this guy but there are people lighting off bombs out there and as soon as a big one goes off people will demand they do a lot more than this. Would you rather have your Facebook scanned or see a car bomb go off in Times Square during rush hour? That's not hyperbole, that's the decision we have to make.

rhp 13y ago
Nobody wants to see a car bomb go off in Times Square, but the problem with this line of reasoning is that it requires an unrealistic amount of trust that the government won't take this power to extremes. It's just human nature that power tends to corrupt, and absolute power will corrupt absolutely -- especially if left unchecked. In the case of these revelations, how can something be kept in check if its mere existence is kept secret by those who abuse it?
- edwardunknown 13y ago
  I'm just happy someone found a productive use for Facebook. But right, it can't be kept in check because it will bleed out into other areas of law enforcement. Then we hit back. But I do think people's thermometers are good enough to know when something like this is warranted and when it's not. When you remember that we are at war, on our own soil, this is a very minor thing. But if one major attack happens though it will create a panic and then we'll see major changes to our way of life. And a lot of the same tough guys here from New York and San Francisco will be the ones demanding it.
  - pyre 13y ago
    Right. Their argument is invalid because if some hypothetical future even happens, you predict that their attitude would change.
    - edwardunknown 13y ago
      "Hypothetical": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foiled_Islamic_terrorist_plots_in_the_post-9/11_United_States#Obama_administration_.28First_term.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foiled_Islamic_terroris... And those are the ones we know about, Obama doesn't spike the ball on that stuff quite like Bush did. And if you think there wouldn't be global ramifications for blowing up the New York City subway line you're not thinking clearly.
      - flyinRyan 13y ago
        So in 20+ years we have 12 cases? And how do we know any of these cases are actually true? Because the people who benefit from wiretapping us claim it's true? The cases I follow have all been clear cut cases of entrapment (where the victim still went to jail!).
betterunix 13y ago
That is hyperbole. The number of terrorist incidents is massively low, and the few that the government claims to have stopped were such laughably unrealistic plots that one wonders the government even bothered. Meanwhile, we have a government surveillance program that literally surpasses the level of the Stasi, here in the United States, and simultaneously an administration that will not even reveal the criteria used for deciding when to engage in an extrajudicial killing. Sorry, but you cannot scare me with terrorism. I would rather see the rare terrorist attack than live in a country where I have to think twice about what I say on the phone.
- edwardunknown 13y ago
  Bullshit, 'the Stasi"? Go talk to somebody who lived in East Germany. And they catch people all the time trying to get bomb materials, how did you think they were doing it, luck? (In the case of the car bomb in Times Square you're right, it was dumb luck, the timer malfunctioned.) If the average person didn't freak out and start yelling retarded things like 'Stasi!' I'd say fine, maybe my fucking Facebook is worth people's lives but they do freak out and then they pass things like the Patriot Act, or worse. So to prevent mindless fear I say fine, scoop up whatever crap you need, if I want something kept secret I know how to do it.
  - gaelian 13y ago
    My partner grew up in East Germany and has told me of the Stasi and their activities. I note that the GP wrote 'we have a government surveillance program that literally surpasses the level of the Stasi' - emphasis mine, and I think this is a fair statement. Also, on a meta-point, every time I see someone start their post off with the word 'Bullshit' on HN - and I see it quite often, like it's some sort of HN meme - I always think: gee, that post would have lost nothing from the exclusion of that first word and probably would have been a little more in service of promoting civil discourse.
    - edwardunknown 13y ago
      How old's your partner, I've known two people who escaped from East Germany and one from Romania. I asked them all about what it was like living there & how they escaped because of course I'm an asshole American and all I got was the thousand yard stare. When the Berlin Wall fell there were hundreds of divorces because they found out their spouses were spying on them. Bugging people's homes was routine. If you said anything against the government you were shipped off or executed. In the case of the Romanian guy I've never seen that kind of look on a man's face. In all three cases I feel terrible for even asking, and I won't be doing it again. Datamining your worthless Facebook page does not compare to what they went through.
gyardley 13y ago
Did I sleep in the day we actually made that decision? Because from where I'm standing it looks like the government made that decision for us, without telling us about it. Had we been asked to participate in the decision somehow, armed with a bit of the 'transparency' this government keeps talking about, we might have weighed the evidence and democratically chosen the exact same course of action - although I'm not 100% sure of that. But none of us were asked.
- edwardunknown 13y ago
  You were asked, it was called "mid term elections". They had them without you.
flyinRyan 13y ago
You're a moron. We had none of this infra in place until recently and what have the "terrorists" managed to pull off? Two WTC attacks in 20 years and the biggest one killed 3k people. I'd rather take the chance on a bomb going off in Time Square at rush hour. That happening is insanely unlikely, but the government abusing privacy information has already happened. The more they have the worse it will get. The only "terrorists" I worry about is the US government itself.

rhp 13y ago

Nobody wants to see a car bomb go off in Times Square, but the problem with this line of reasoning is that it requires an unrealistic amount of trust that the government won't take this power to extremes. It's just human nature that power tends to corrupt, and absolute power will corrupt absolutely -- especially if left unchecked. In the case of these revelations, how can something be kept in check if its mere existence is kept secret by those who abuse it?

edwardunknown 13y ago
I'm just happy someone found a productive use for Facebook. But right, it can't be kept in check because it will bleed out into other areas of law enforcement. Then we hit back. But I do think people's thermometers are good enough to know when something like this is warranted and when it's not. When you remember that we are at war, on our own soil, this is a very minor thing. But if one major attack happens though it will create a panic and then we'll see major changes to our way of life. And a lot of the same tough guys here from New York and San Francisco will be the ones demanding it.
- pyre 13y ago
  Right. Their argument is invalid because if some hypothetical future even happens, you predict that their attitude would change.
  - edwardunknown 13y ago
    "Hypothetical": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foiled_Islamic_terrorist_plots_in_the_post-9/11_United_States#Obama_administration_.28First_term.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foiled_Islamic_terroris... And those are the ones we know about, Obama doesn't spike the ball on that stuff quite like Bush did. And if you think there wouldn't be global ramifications for blowing up the New York City subway line you're not thinking clearly.
    - flyinRyan 13y ago
      So in 20+ years we have 12 cases? And how do we know any of these cases are actually true? Because the people who benefit from wiretapping us claim it's true? The cases I follow have all been clear cut cases of entrapment (where the victim still went to jail!).

betterunix 13y ago

That is hyperbole. The number of terrorist incidents is massively low, and the few that the government claims to have stopped were such laughably unrealistic plots that one wonders the government even bothered. Meanwhile, we have a government surveillance program that literally surpasses the level of the Stasi, here in the United States, and simultaneously an administration that will not even reveal the criteria used for deciding when to engage in an extrajudicial killing. Sorry, but you cannot scare me with terrorism. I would rather see the rare terrorist attack than live in a country where I have to think twice about what I say on the phone.

edwardunknown 13y ago
Bullshit, 'the Stasi"? Go talk to somebody who lived in East Germany. And they catch people all the time trying to get bomb materials, how did you think they were doing it, luck? (In the case of the car bomb in Times Square you're right, it was dumb luck, the timer malfunctioned.) If the average person didn't freak out and start yelling retarded things like 'Stasi!' I'd say fine, maybe my fucking Facebook is worth people's lives but they do freak out and then they pass things like the Patriot Act, or worse. So to prevent mindless fear I say fine, scoop up whatever crap you need, if I want something kept secret I know how to do it.
- gaelian 13y ago
  My partner grew up in East Germany and has told me of the Stasi and their activities. I note that the GP wrote 'we have a government surveillance program that literally surpasses the level of the Stasi' - emphasis mine, and I think this is a fair statement. Also, on a meta-point, every time I see someone start their post off with the word 'Bullshit' on HN - and I see it quite often, like it's some sort of HN meme - I always think: gee, that post would have lost nothing from the exclusion of that first word and probably would have been a little more in service of promoting civil discourse.
  - edwardunknown 13y ago
    How old's your partner, I've known two people who escaped from East Germany and one from Romania. I asked them all about what it was like living there & how they escaped because of course I'm an asshole American and all I got was the thousand yard stare. When the Berlin Wall fell there were hundreds of divorces because they found out their spouses were spying on them. Bugging people's homes was routine. If you said anything against the government you were shipped off or executed. In the case of the Romanian guy I've never seen that kind of look on a man's face. In all three cases I feel terrible for even asking, and I won't be doing it again. Datamining your worthless Facebook page does not compare to what they went through.

gyardley 13y ago

Did I sleep in the day we actually made that decision? Because from where I'm standing it looks like the government made that decision for us, without telling us about it. Had we been asked to participate in the decision somehow, armed with a bit of the 'transparency' this government keeps talking about, we might have weighed the evidence and democratically chosen the exact same course of action - although I'm not 100% sure of that. But none of us were asked.

edwardunknown 13y ago
You were asked, it was called "mid term elections". They had them without you.

flyinRyan 13y ago

You're a moron. We had none of this infra in place until recently and what have the "terrorists" managed to pull off? Two WTC attacks in 20 years and the biggest one killed 3k people. I'd rather take the chance on a bomb going off in Time Square at rush hour. That happening is insanely unlikely, but the government abusing privacy information has already happened. The more they have the worse it will get. The only "terrorists" I worry about is the US government itself.