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"...When are you going to understand that a conservative Libertarian (as opposed to extreme and nearly anarchist) approach is the only path to recovery?..." I

by bilbo0s 13y ago

"...When are you going to understand that a conservative Libertarian (as opposed to extreme and nearly anarchist) approach is the only path to recovery?..." I think this is the issue in a nutshell. Partisanship. Even people who do not like the Demopublicans... are 'partisan'. I know it was probably not intended, but your post provides illustration of the issue by way of example. I'd wager you, like the average Democrat and Republican, would vote for whoever towed your party line. And this vote comes regardless of whether or not the party line is good for the US. If a given policy is good for the US, then great! But this is not a necessity to gain your support... it is incidental. The important thing for Partisans is not continuous improvement, but continuous compliance. It's far more important to a Partisan that we do things 'their way', than it is for us to improve ourselves. We need to move away from Partisanship toward an environment where each issue is judged on its merits. Without regard to preconceived grand ideas that underlie some Party's philosophy on the 'right way to do things'. This is the only way we will get the continuous improvement we are looking for. By abandoning the, sort of, 'sacred cow', ideas that have gripped the nation's political discourse on every front.

robomartin 13y ago
Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. I am a true independent in the full sense of the word. To be fair, our system is based on political parties. If these were abolished and politicians had to run without party affiliation then one could vote outside clans. I want an intellectually honest limited government that is fiscally conservative and socially, well, gets the fuck out of our lives. As an atheist it pains me to sometimes have to vote for uber-religious Republicans. Sometimes I have to choose between social and fiscal policies. Obama promised he would deal with all of it, and here we are we have wasted four years and are about to waste four more. None of the extreme's are good. Extreme left, right and yes, extreme Libertarians are deranged and delusional lunatics who ought to be nowhere near our government. As an example, I love Ron Paul but some of his foreign policy ideas were nutty. I still think we need to quickly shift into something that is closer to a moderate Libertarian concept. Beyond that, we need major structural changes in order to have a shot at recovering in FIFTY YEARS. Yes folks, do the math, recovery will take twenty five to fifty years. We've done a lot of damage to our country --all from the inside. Unions, entitlement programs, patents, tax code, Obamacare, IRS, Patriot act, NSA, EDUCATION, spending, political whore politicians, ignorant voters, budgets, OSHA, etc.
- d23 13y ago
  > Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. > I want an intellectually honest limited government that is fiscally conservative and socially, well, gets the fuck out of our lives. So you voted for a guy who ran on a platform that was the opposite? That government has a positive role to play in peoples lives and believed in progressive social causes? > I am a true independent in the full sense of the word. Oh, in the sense that you're not informed? I believe the term is "low-information voter". You might want to try that instead of "independent".
  - robomartin 13y ago
    Voting within a system where you know, almost without a doubt, that only a Democrat or a Republican can win is really difficult. As an independent or libertarian you sometimes have to be pragmatic and vote for someone who might be aligned with some of what you think is important and hope to do some good. The alternative is to either waste your vote on someone who will not get elected or refrain from voting at all. This isn't a simple problem. There are very few choices that actually make a difference. I used my presidential voting record merely to point out that I truly don't follow party lines. Voting at all levels is important, not just for president.
- Alex3917 13y ago
  So because Obama lied too much, you instead voted for the guy who probably told more lies than any politician in U.S. presidential history? And rather than voting for the libertarian who was running, you voted for the guy who campaigned on sending people to jail for getting abortions, using drugs, etc.?
- bhauer 13y ago
  Interesting voting pattern. To my mind, that pattern is another argument in favor of score voting (sometimes called "range voting") [1]. I'd vastly prefer score voting to our present plurality voting for all elections, and of course most importantly, national elections. This would have allowed me and you to score Obama, Romney, and Gary Johnson according to how well they match our ideals. I grow increasingly weary of either "choosing the lesser of two evils" or "throwing my vote away." [1] http://btf.io/362 http://btf.io/362

by bilbo0s 13y ago

robomartin 13y ago

Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. I am a true independent in the full sense of the word. To be fair, our system is based on political parties. If these were abolished and politicians had to run without party affiliation then one could vote outside clans. I want an intellectually honest limited government that is fiscally conservative and socially, well, gets the fuck out of our lives. As an atheist it pains me to sometimes have to vote for uber-religious Republicans. Sometimes I have to choose between social and fiscal policies. Obama promised he would deal with all of it, and here we are we have wasted four years and are about to waste four more. None of the extreme's are good. Extreme left, right and yes, extreme Libertarians are deranged and delusional lunatics who ought to be nowhere near our government. As an example, I love Ron Paul but some of his foreign policy ideas were nutty. I still think we need to quickly shift into something that is closer to a moderate Libertarian concept. Beyond that, we need major structural changes in order to have a shot at recovering in FIFTY YEARS. Yes folks, do the math, recovery will take twenty five to fifty years. We've done a lot of damage to our country --all from the inside. Unions, entitlement programs, patents, tax code, Obamacare, IRS, Patriot act, NSA, EDUCATION, spending, political whore politicians, ignorant voters, budgets, OSHA, etc.

d23 13y ago
> Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. > I want an intellectually honest limited government that is fiscally conservative and socially, well, gets the fuck out of our lives. So you voted for a guy who ran on a platform that was the opposite? That government has a positive role to play in peoples lives and believed in progressive social causes? > I am a true independent in the full sense of the word. Oh, in the sense that you're not informed? I believe the term is "low-information voter". You might want to try that instead of "independent".
- robomartin 13y ago
  Voting within a system where you know, almost without a doubt, that only a Democrat or a Republican can win is really difficult. As an independent or libertarian you sometimes have to be pragmatic and vote for someone who might be aligned with some of what you think is important and hope to do some good. The alternative is to either waste your vote on someone who will not get elected or refrain from voting at all. This isn't a simple problem. There are very few choices that actually make a difference. I used my presidential voting record merely to point out that I truly don't follow party lines. Voting at all levels is important, not just for president.
Alex3917 13y ago
So because Obama lied too much, you instead voted for the guy who probably told more lies than any politician in U.S. presidential history? And rather than voting for the libertarian who was running, you voted for the guy who campaigned on sending people to jail for getting abortions, using drugs, etc.?
bhauer 13y ago
Interesting voting pattern. To my mind, that pattern is another argument in favor of score voting (sometimes called "range voting") [1]. I'd vastly prefer score voting to our present plurality voting for all elections, and of course most importantly, national elections. This would have allowed me and you to score Obama, Romney, and Gary Johnson according to how well they match our ideals. I grow increasingly weary of either "choosing the lesser of two evils" or "throwing my vote away." [1] http://btf.io/362 http://btf.io/362