7 ms·

I'm not a member of the Rails community, so I'm curious as to why this "Women in Programming" issue seems to focused solely on that community. Women are underr

by hvs 18y ago

I'm not a member of the Rails community, so I'm curious as to why this "Women in Programming" issue seems to focused solely on that community. Women are underrepresented in almost all development communities and it seems odd to focus on one specific community. It would be strange to talk about "the lack of female representation in the C++ community" rather than the development community in general, so why is this different? I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, I'm legitimately curious.

swombat 18y ago
Actually, just last week there was a panel on "women in technology" at Geeknrolla, so it's definitely not a rails-only issue. More info here: http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-on-the-balancing-tech-culture-debate-geeknrolla/ http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-o...
- hvs 18y ago
  Oh, I definitely don't believe it is a Rails-only issue, it just seemed odd that the loudest discussion going on right now seemed to be focused on Rails. It just feels odd to attach it to a specific technology.
  - curoi 18y ago
    It most certainly isn't a Rails-only issue. Women in technology seems to be a perennial discussion point with little change in the composition nor the results. One reason that Rails seems to be the loudest right now is because Rails attracts (and was begun) by very outspoken, opinionated, people.
    - dkarl 18y ago
      I think some progress is being made in terms of making workplaces more hospitable to women. Sexual harassment has been a recognized issue for a long time now, but geeks consider themselves too passive and harmless to harass anybody, so they have been slow to catch on. The underrepresentation of women in technology has stimulated some self-reflection about how the workplace atmosphere might put off technologically capable and interested women.
      - Tichy 18y ago
        Still wondering how the "underrepresentation" is being measured. Who defines the appropriate percentage of women in technology, so that we can conclude that there are too few of them? While I would prefer to have more female colleagues, I don't believe men and women can be compared just like that.
decode 18y ago
I'm not in the Ruby community, but here's what I've gathered: There was a talk at the Golden Gate Ruby Conference called "CouchDB + Ruby: Perform Like a Pr0n Star", which featured an extended porn-industry metaphor and what some have described as softcore porn in the slides. This talk created a lot of discussion in the Ruby community, in particular about the effect this kind of talk has on the female attendees, and the general atmosphere of the conference. It also caused the Ruby community to introspect on what kind of environment they are creating and how it affects people who are not heterosexual males who may wish to participate in that community. See the links posted above by swombat for some of the discussion.
- hvs 18y ago
  Huh. Yeah, I could see how that might generate discussion. As a heterosexual male, I would be uncomfortable being at a presentation that used pornographic imagery throughout. Call me a prude, but certain things simply don't belong in a professional environment.
  - batasrki 18y ago
    Not only that, but when the issue was brought into the spotlight, the "leaders" of the Rails community dismissed as "edgy". Some have even applauded it. This is a major reason for Mike leaving.
    - raganwald 18y ago
      When the issue was brought into the spotlight, the "leaders" of the Rails community dismissed as "edgy". Porn is not edgy. Walking into Oracle's Head Office and shitting on their conference table is edgy. http://twitter.com/raganwald/status/1641756320 http://twitter.com/raganwald/status/1641756320
    - Tichy 18y ago
      So are there even less women in Rails than in other IT sectors? Or is it all just speculation? I could imagine applauding someone taking a stand against political correctness in certain circumstances.
mechanical_fish 18y ago
All I know about this is what I learned from Giles Bowkett: http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/#comment-555 http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-... who sounds dead-on correct to me: I put huge slides with four-letter words on the screen when I give presentations, but it never makes anybody feel uncomfortable. But that’s because there’s an art to these things, and I know every time I do it that I might go too far and have to eat my pride and apologize. You did it wrong. The fact that anybody blogged about it means you did it wrong. So you have to just accept that and be a man about it instead of arguing with her. If a woman tells you that putting giant sexually suggestive images in front of her made her uncomfortable, you don’t get to bicker about that. It's not so much that the Rails community has a particularly unusual problem with women. It's that, when one tone-deaf guy lights a match at a Rails conference, apparently nobody knows how to put out the fire before it burns down the community. It's a shame.
- joecode 18y ago
  "If a woman tells you that putting giant sexually suggestive images in front of her made her uncomfortable, you don’t get to bicker about that." Isn't this a sexist viewpoint itself? As if a woman's reasoning doesn't matter, just that you have offended, oh my, a female?
  - raganwald 18y ago
    One could equally say that if I tell you that putting the word "Nigger" in a slide makes me feel uncomfortable, you don't get to bicker about that. It's just one of those things that matter if other people's feelings matter. I discovered this the hard way when I repeated a joke about Jews to a Jewish friend. As she put it, "Jokes are all in the delivery, and you have to be Jewish to deliver that joke."
    - joecode 18y ago
      No, its not really the same thing. Because there is a very obvious reason that people are upset by that word. My point is merely that you need to explain your reasons, not merely point out your skin color or gender, as if that itself were a reason. Your Jewish friend, for example, has given a very good reason for why jokes about Jews by non-Jews are generally offensive. In fact, there are cases where using that word in a presentation would be perfectly legitimate, i.e. in a presentation about racist epithets. If someone objected to that, I would bicker with them, regardless of their skin color.

by hvs 18y ago

swombat 18y ago

Actually, just last week there was a panel on "women in technology" at Geeknrolla, so it's definitely not a rails-only issue. More info here: http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-on-the-balancing-tech-culture-debate-geeknrolla/ http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-o...

hvs 18y ago
Oh, I definitely don't believe it is a Rails-only issue, it just seemed odd that the loudest discussion going on right now seemed to be focused on Rails. It just feels odd to attach it to a specific technology.
- curoi 18y ago
  It most certainly isn't a Rails-only issue. Women in technology seems to be a perennial discussion point with little change in the composition nor the results. One reason that Rails seems to be the loudest right now is because Rails attracts (and was begun) by very outspoken, opinionated, people.
  - dkarl 18y ago
    I think some progress is being made in terms of making workplaces more hospitable to women. Sexual harassment has been a recognized issue for a long time now, but geeks consider themselves too passive and harmless to harass anybody, so they have been slow to catch on. The underrepresentation of women in technology has stimulated some self-reflection about how the workplace atmosphere might put off technologically capable and interested women.
    - Tichy 18y ago
      Still wondering how the "underrepresentation" is being measured. Who defines the appropriate percentage of women in technology, so that we can conclude that there are too few of them? While I would prefer to have more female colleagues, I don't believe men and women can be compared just like that.

decode 18y ago

I'm not in the Ruby community, but here's what I've gathered: There was a talk at the Golden Gate Ruby Conference called "CouchDB + Ruby: Perform Like a Pr0n Star", which featured an extended porn-industry metaphor and what some have described as softcore porn in the slides. This talk created a lot of discussion in the Ruby community, in particular about the effect this kind of talk has on the female attendees, and the general atmosphere of the conference. It also caused the Ruby community to introspect on what kind of environment they are creating and how it affects people who are not heterosexual males who may wish to participate in that community. See the links posted above by swombat for some of the discussion.

hvs 18y ago
Huh. Yeah, I could see how that might generate discussion. As a heterosexual male, I would be uncomfortable being at a presentation that used pornographic imagery throughout. Call me a prude, but certain things simply don't belong in a professional environment.
- batasrki 18y ago
  Not only that, but when the issue was brought into the spotlight, the "leaders" of the Rails community dismissed as "edgy". Some have even applauded it. This is a major reason for Mike leaving.
  - raganwald 18y ago
    When the issue was brought into the spotlight, the "leaders" of the Rails community dismissed as "edgy". Porn is not edgy. Walking into Oracle's Head Office and shitting on their conference table is edgy. http://twitter.com/raganwald/status/1641756320 http://twitter.com/raganwald/status/1641756320
  - Tichy 18y ago
    So are there even less women in Rails than in other IT sectors? Or is it all just speculation? I could imagine applauding someone taking a stand against political correctness in certain circumstances.

mechanical_fish 18y ago

All I know about this is what I learned from Giles Bowkett: http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/#comment-555 http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-... who sounds dead-on correct to me: I put huge slides with four-letter words on the screen when I give presentations, but it never makes anybody feel uncomfortable. But that’s because there’s an art to these things, and I know every time I do it that I might go too far and have to eat my pride and apologize. You did it wrong. The fact that anybody blogged about it means you did it wrong. So you have to just accept that and be a man about it instead of arguing with her. If a woman tells you that putting giant sexually suggestive images in front of her made her uncomfortable, you don’t get to bicker about that. It's not so much that the Rails community has a particularly unusual problem with women. It's that, when one tone-deaf guy lights a match at a Rails conference, apparently nobody knows how to put out the fire before it burns down the community. It's a shame.

joecode 18y ago
"If a woman tells you that putting giant sexually suggestive images in front of her made her uncomfortable, you don’t get to bicker about that." Isn't this a sexist viewpoint itself? As if a woman's reasoning doesn't matter, just that you have offended, oh my, a female?
- raganwald 18y ago
  One could equally say that if I tell you that putting the word "Nigger" in a slide makes me feel uncomfortable, you don't get to bicker about that. It's just one of those things that matter if other people's feelings matter. I discovered this the hard way when I repeated a joke about Jews to a Jewish friend. As she put it, "Jokes are all in the delivery, and you have to be Jewish to deliver that joke."
  - joecode 18y ago
    No, its not really the same thing. Because there is a very obvious reason that people are upset by that word. My point is merely that you need to explain your reasons, not merely point out your skin color or gender, as if that itself were a reason. Your Jewish friend, for example, has given a very good reason for why jokes about Jews by non-Jews are generally offensive. In fact, there are cases where using that word in a presentation would be perfectly legitimate, i.e. in a presentation about racist epithets. If someone objected to that, I would bicker with them, regardless of their skin color.