4 ms·

> "This is not some conspiracy theory. It's happening, and no one seems to care." Do you ever feel like a frog recognizing the water is boiling and you don't k

by spodek 13y ago

> "This is not some conspiracy theory. It's happening, and no one seems to care." Do you ever feel like a frog recognizing the water is boiling and you don't know what to do? Or like you're looking at what Jefferson, Adams, Washington, and the other founders fought and wrote the Declaration and Constitution over, but everybody is acting like it's easier just to pay the stamp tax? Or both?

smacktoward 13y ago
Unlike the Founders, we have tools at our disposal to change things. We elect our own representatives. We are free to organize an opposition. We have a free press -- and in the age of easy and cheap online publishing, that's a power that anyone can exercise, not just media barons. We have lots of levers short of revolution that we can push on to move policy in directions more respectful of the rule of law. The only question is whether anyone cares enough to use them.
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  Fairly serious question: You really think that actually has any significant probability of working in the US?
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Would it work if people tried? I bet it would. Will people try? No, because they don't care about this issue. The refrain of democracy being broken in America is getting old. It's not broken--you just don't like that the majority has a long list of issues it cares more about than privacy. We are getting the things people care about: legalized gay marriage, continued access to abortion, welfare spending, social services for the elderly. We're fighting the good fight on issues that aren't quite there yet: universal healthcare, etc. Democracy is alive and kicking in America.
    - brymaster 13y ago
      You're describing wedge issues that politicians use to get people to fight red vs blue. Anyone that has ever brought up the subject of privacy and domestic spying has been lambasted as a conspiracy nut.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        They are wedge issues because people care. You don't see teenagers standing on the sidewalks getting people to sign petitions to address domestic spying after all.
        brymaster 13y ago
        No, they are wedge issues because politicians are able to divide voters through manipulation, dogma and money from lobbying power. Once a politician tells voters (or teenagers) that domestic spying is an 'issue' then they'll care. That's how the game works.
        rayiner 13y ago
        Ah yes, the line of old democracy is a failure because people are idiots for not caring about what I care about.
        brymaster 13y ago
        Ah yes, the line where we pretend the government isn't run by special interests and the game isn't rigged.
  - smacktoward 13y ago
    I do, yeah. Twenty years ago gay marriage was a radioactive issue. I know because I was an intern in a Democratic Senator's office back then, and when the Defense of Marriage Act came up I got to watch my boss and a bunch of other normally progressive people rush to vote for it to avoid any possibility of being painted as pro-gay. It was a deeply depressing spectacle. Now gay marriage is not only thinkable, it's on the verge of becoming the new normal. Why? How did that happen? It happened because gay people organized. They spent two decades doing the hard work required to change peoples' minds. And now that work is paying off. A democracy is not an immovable object. Moving it is hard, but it can be done. You just have to be willing to put your back into it.
    - bobwaycott 13y ago
      I feel there is a huge difference between political organization around issues of civil rights, and organizing against the military-intelligence-industrial complex. I've studied the history of civil rights considerably. This issue strikes me as a far different beast. I would love to be wrong.
personlurking 13y ago
For those reasons, I suggest reading online the Anatomy of Slavespeak. While longwinded, it questions the use of words we all know and use without second thought. The constitution is one of those words.
sethrin 13y ago
The American Revolution would not have been successfully fought without tons of gunpowder, a couple dozen ships of the line, tens of thousands of muskets, hundreds (thousands?) of cannon, and over $1 billion livres from the French. It was a proxy war. The other problem with this revolution idea is that no one wants to be the first to die for their beliefs.
notdrunkatall 13y ago
That's exactly what I feel like, but I've been feeling like that for a long time. I used to go out of my way to tell people about these things, but after a while, I figured out that most people just don't care enough to really do anything about it. Sure, they'll pay lip service to the notion that the NSA shouldn't be doing things like this, but there seems to be some sort of implicit trust factor within people that compels them to just shut up and accept that what their leaders are doing is for their own good, which puts a damper on any action they might think about taking. I do think that if the media really got on board with lambasting the government and pointing out the obvious reasons that things like this shouldn't happen, the public at large would eventually start caring, and our society would be better for it - but I don't expect that to happen any time soon, if ever. So instead of hoping that people will eventually catch on to what's going on, I've simply started making plans to get myself out of the pot before the water gets too hot and I'm too cooked to leave.

by spodek 13y ago

smacktoward 13y ago

Unlike the Founders, we have tools at our disposal to change things. We elect our own representatives. We are free to organize an opposition. We have a free press -- and in the age of easy and cheap online publishing, that's a power that anyone can exercise, not just media barons. We have lots of levers short of revolution that we can push on to move policy in directions more respectful of the rule of law. The only question is whether anyone cares enough to use them.

bobwaycott 13y ago
Fairly serious question: You really think that actually has any significant probability of working in the US?
- rayiner 13y ago
  Would it work if people tried? I bet it would. Will people try? No, because they don't care about this issue. The refrain of democracy being broken in America is getting old. It's not broken--you just don't like that the majority has a long list of issues it cares more about than privacy. We are getting the things people care about: legalized gay marriage, continued access to abortion, welfare spending, social services for the elderly. We're fighting the good fight on issues that aren't quite there yet: universal healthcare, etc. Democracy is alive and kicking in America.
  - brymaster 13y ago
    You're describing wedge issues that politicians use to get people to fight red vs blue. Anyone that has ever brought up the subject of privacy and domestic spying has been lambasted as a conspiracy nut.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      They are wedge issues because people care. You don't see teenagers standing on the sidewalks getting people to sign petitions to address domestic spying after all.
      - brymaster 13y ago
        No, they are wedge issues because politicians are able to divide voters through manipulation, dogma and money from lobbying power. Once a politician tells voters (or teenagers) that domestic spying is an 'issue' then they'll care. That's how the game works.
        rayiner 13y ago
        Ah yes, the line of old democracy is a failure because people are idiots for not caring about what I care about.
        brymaster 13y ago
        Ah yes, the line where we pretend the government isn't run by special interests and the game isn't rigged.
- smacktoward 13y ago
  I do, yeah. Twenty years ago gay marriage was a radioactive issue. I know because I was an intern in a Democratic Senator's office back then, and when the Defense of Marriage Act came up I got to watch my boss and a bunch of other normally progressive people rush to vote for it to avoid any possibility of being painted as pro-gay. It was a deeply depressing spectacle. Now gay marriage is not only thinkable, it's on the verge of becoming the new normal. Why? How did that happen? It happened because gay people organized. They spent two decades doing the hard work required to change peoples' minds. And now that work is paying off. A democracy is not an immovable object. Moving it is hard, but it can be done. You just have to be willing to put your back into it.
  - bobwaycott 13y ago
    I feel there is a huge difference between political organization around issues of civil rights, and organizing against the military-intelligence-industrial complex. I've studied the history of civil rights considerably. This issue strikes me as a far different beast. I would love to be wrong.

personlurking 13y ago

For those reasons, I suggest reading online the Anatomy of Slavespeak. While longwinded, it questions the use of words we all know and use without second thought. The constitution is one of those words.

sethrin 13y ago

The American Revolution would not have been successfully fought without tons of gunpowder, a couple dozen ships of the line, tens of thousands of muskets, hundreds (thousands?) of cannon, and over $1 billion livres from the French. It was a proxy war. The other problem with this revolution idea is that no one wants to be the first to die for their beliefs.

notdrunkatall 13y ago

That's exactly what I feel like, but I've been feeling like that for a long time. I used to go out of my way to tell people about these things, but after a while, I figured out that most people just don't care enough to really do anything about it. Sure, they'll pay lip service to the notion that the NSA shouldn't be doing things like this, but there seems to be some sort of implicit trust factor within people that compels them to just shut up and accept that what their leaders are doing is for their own good, which puts a damper on any action they might think about taking. I do think that if the media really got on board with lambasting the government and pointing out the obvious reasons that things like this shouldn't happen, the public at large would eventually start caring, and our society would be better for it - but I don't expect that to happen any time soon, if ever. So instead of hoping that people will eventually catch on to what's going on, I've simply started making plans to get myself out of the pot before the water gets too hot and I'm too cooked to leave.