9 ms·

Posting to HN is like exposing yourself to the eye of Mordor

212 points by dsowers 13y ago

I see great projects here on HN every day, but we are a species which loves cynicism. The comment threads can be especially hard on authors. To all the creators out there, I salute you.

tarr11 13y ago
Do you have something to share? Cmon, we're not that bad. :)
- dsowers 13y ago
  lol. I don't have something to share at the moment. I've felt "the eye" in the past, however.
hardwaresofton 13y ago
Other than this being the internet and developer-brain (read: I-could-have-built-that syndrome), maybe people do it to make up for the fact that you can't downvote "fair and balanced"?
- nilkn 13y ago
  You can downvote if you have at least 500 karma (recently learned this myself).
  - pseut 13y ago
    Not submissions.
  - hardwaresofton 13y ago
    upvoted for educational value
bichiliad 13y ago
Personally, I'd rather have "the eye" than posting something and expecting positive feedback. If I wanted that, I'd ask my mom what she thought. At least here, I know that if I get positive feedback, I'm either doing a really good job, or I'm just really good at riding a fad.
- dquail 13y ago
  Hahah. classic. Let the comments slamming the guy that comments on negative HN comments begin. I've had a few posts on the front page and have been lambasted each time.
jaysonelliot 13y ago
In my experience so far, posting to HN is more like carving my name on a tree in a mostly uninhabited forest. My various attempts to post an Ask or Show HN have mostly gone unnoticed. I think it would be great if there were a place that Ask / Show / Tell / etc. posts could get more traction in general.
- zachwill 13y ago
  Have you checked out this section? https://news.ycombinator.com/ask https://news.ycombinator.com/ask I normally never visit it, but it is available.
  - yen223 13y ago
    "I normally never visit it" Therein lies the problem :) It doesn't matter if the parent visits it, if no one else does.
    - nostrademons 13y ago
      Then exploit this market inefficiency for yourself and fix that. I try to make it a point to visit the /newest page, and find that I have disproportionate influence on the content of Hacker News as a result. At slow times, it only takes about 3-4 votes in quick succession for a story to crack the top 30 on the front page. If a story is sitting on /newest with 3 votes, you can be the one that starts a voting cascade that brings it to the top. And as an added bonus, if you add an insightful comment, you can rake in hundreds of karma points as your comment is the first thing that thousands of readers see.
      - nutanc 13y ago
        I would say, now would be a good time to post something, as a lot of people would have checked out /newest after reading your comment :)
  - vxNsr 13y ago
    Wow, I didn't know what that link was and never bothered to find out... I assumed it was something like a suggestion box or something.
colemorrison 13y ago
I SEE YOU. AND USUALLY IT IS NOT GOOD. (end quote)
- colemorrison 13y ago
  Geezus I was joking to whoever downvoted me. "I SEE YOU" is what Sauron says from "lord of the rings" and the "AND USUALLY IT IS NOT GOOD" was what the HN Sauron would say thank you very much. Damn, I thought everyone had seen LOTR...
  - sillysaurus 13y ago
    Heh, it's nothing personal. We downvote memes or quotes that don't also contribute something unique. It's just quality control. Truly hilarious jokes, on the other hand, are highly upvoted.
    - huhtenberg 13y ago
      Who are these "we" you are referring to?
readme 13y ago
I salute the cynics. There's nothing worse than throwing good at a bad idea only to one day realize you've wasted your time, money, and effort. If one cynical comment is enough to derail your ambitions, you shouldn't be doing a startup.
- pkfrank 13y ago
  I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with cynicism. It definitely serves a purpose, as you point out. The problem I see is that OPs tend to receive a reliable and sustained torrent of cynicism, and little else. Sure, there is value in those comments, and often super enlightening exchanges, but the default attitude of being the smartest-guy-in-the-room can get exhausting and counter-productive. Oftentimes would-be worthwhile discussion get buried or passed up for a bitter exchange with both parties just trying to prove their intellectual worth and cleverness.
- sjtgraham 13y ago
  The problem is that the very vocal snarky minority heap shit on absolutely anything and everything.
  - GhotiFish 13y ago
    got some candidates that fit that description? It's easy to tell yourself that the only reason someone's objecting, is because they object to everything.
    - sjtgraham 13y ago
      It's blindingly obvious that there is extraordinary negativity on HN. - I don't think it's fair to call people out publicly (or necessary). Especially as they are unlikely to see my comment and have the opportunity to defend themselves. - I don't tell myself anything of the sort.
    - yen223 13y ago
      I have one. Me, 5 years ago :) The fact is, building something is hard. Criticizing something is easy. There's no special skill involved in picking apart somebody's project, making a big deal out of what is otherwise a minor flaw, and using that to dismiss that guy's work. That was a great way to make myself feel better about the fact that someone else built something, and I didn't.
Sealy 13y ago
I agree with you, but the people on HN much nicer then on other forums. Its hard when you've worked on something and then your post gets trolled to death by a 12 yr old who has a strong opinion. As much as I hate how direct they are, the comments are often true. I just wished the criticisms were more constructive at times.
- sillysaurus 13y ago
  the people on HN much nicer then on other forums. That's a common belief, but I've noticed that Reddit has recently been giving higher-quality comments than HN. Take a look: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5745707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5745707 vs http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1es4pf/soylent_the_powdered_healthy_food_substitute_just/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1es4pf/soylent_t... The Reddit comments are either positive, or they're skeptical in a way that doesn't try to force their opinion on you. They say things like "Hey, I noticed no one at Soylent seems to have a background in nutrition" rather than "I beg you, don't fund these guys! What they're doing is inherently dangerous." (The latter was actually a very common theme in the comments here about Soylent.)
  - kybernetyk 13y ago
    Reddit != reddit. You are comparing a pretty small focussed subreddit to the front page of HN. Actually there are a few subreddits I'm subscribed to where I expect more insightful comments than on HN.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
      - yen223 13y ago
        Not unless you subscribed to /r/Futurology, which isn't a default subreddit.
zalew 13y ago
A lot of people recently try to enforce some back-patting culture. It's not what drives progress. Deal with it, you're not in pre-school anymore and nobody will give you a medal for participation. If you're unable to handle criticism and take out some value from people's opinions, you'll have a hard time in technology and in business.
- sillysaurus 13y ago
  Deal with it, you're not in pre-school anymore and nobody will give you a medal for participation. If you're unable to handle criticism and take out some value from people's opinions, you'll have a hard time in technology and in business. The problem is that people such as yourself make the world a worse place to live in and to experience. There's more to life than technology and business.
  - zalew 13y ago
    this thread is about posting websites, not finding the meaning of life. congratulations on accomplishing writing the comment, have a cookie.
    - sillysaurus 13y ago
      HN is a community. It's not about "posting websites" any more than a club is about bbq's. And comments with aggressive overtones, such as yours, make the community worse.
      - boot 13y ago
        LIFE IS GAME OF CHESS DAMN IT. why am i so lonely.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mindcrime 13y ago
  As true as that all may be, there is still no reason to be a dick to people who make "Show HN" posts. One can be critical without being offensive, insulting, rude or belligerent. But too many people seem to think that being obnoxious is The Right Thing To Do for some mysterious reason. Constructive criticism, preferably actionable feedback, is one thing. Saying "you suck" is quite another. I'm reminded of an old saying, which goes something like (paraphrasing here): "Everyone has their own battles to fight. Be kind to everyone, for you know not what battle they are fighting". Besides, it doesn't cost any extra to be polite and reasonable, versus being inflammatory and attacking.
beefsack 13y ago
To be honest, this isn't the place to be posting projects if all you want is for people to see what you're doing and you have a fragile ego. The feedback from here is very valuable if you take it objectively. I feel that if you want to have your ego stroked and have some exposure for your project, the best place to post it would be somewhere like Reddit. If you want to show some good minds in the field and get valuable advice, then post it here.
jonathanjaeger 13y ago
In general, I see a lot of cynicism on HN, but there's more positivity than other sites and overall a super smart audience. For example, you have to wade through a lot of crap to get a good YouTube comment on a high-trafficked video. Here you don't have that problem. You'll get some quick-to-judge comments but you'll also get great feedback (or at the very least, devils advocate type feedback that's worth discussing). Everything: with a grain of salt.
- sjtgraham 13y ago
  The audience isn't as a whole super smart. Sure there are very smart people that contribute to this community, but unfortunately they're outnumbered significantly by a lot of poorly socialised idiots. One of the recent watershed moments for me was when I think it was PG posted a poll on the user ages, and there was a inordinate amount (obviously false) of very elderly senior citizens using HN. I remember PG remarking upon it.
danso 13y ago
I think we're all in agreeance that trollish snark ("Great, Facebook for [insert subgroup]", "This sucks", etc.) is not helpful (and is almost always downvoted, or at least I'll downvote) But what about: "Why do I have to login to Facebook to see this?", "There are too many typos for this to be taken seriously?", "The font/colors are really hard to read", "It's broken in Firefox", "Facebook tried this in 2009 and they had [such and such] kinds of problems, what are you doing differently?" I dunno...Maybe people have different expectations when doing a "Show HN?" If you've worked hard on something, of course you should be encouraged ...but if you're pitching it as a viable startup idea...then you, IMO, shouldn't just want "atta boy/girl" comments...constructive criticism now could save you a lot of pain later on.
- pyre 13y ago
  I'd say there are probably quite a few people that post to Show HN just for peer validation. Sure the constructive criticism is helpful to improve the project, but comments like: Change the colors, my eyes are bleeding. Or: Ugh, another Bootstrap site? could be worded in a more positive fashion while still delivering the same content. Even examples like: Doesn't work in Firefox aren't useful, because there's no mention of the Firefox version and/or the operating system.
cyanbane 13y ago
I think the question you have to ask yourself when posting a project to HN is are you ready to receive blunt and sometimes uncivilized responses to your work(?). I think as long as you submit with that filter in full view that even when your work is chided relentlessly for some already obvious gap you can still sort through and determine legitimate criticisms. Say what you will about HN and its strong convictions and shallow snide callouts, but there are not a lot of avenues like it on the internet today for getting actionable feedback.
minimax 13y ago
I was much more cynical about new technology products before I tried to build and market one myself. That shit is hard, and most of the peanut gallery here one HN has no idea what it takes.
hatesyouall 13y ago
That's because almost everyone is a total moron and almost everything is utter shit. Fuck you, by the way.
joeblau 13y ago
I got more views, comments, and backlash on Reddit than on HN for my project. The HN community is analytical; they will always find a problem with your solution--sometimes people will offer answers and that's where this community shines.
ianstallings 13y ago
IMHO you should try your best to ignore what people say unless it's constructive to your work and life. Not everyone will love you and your work and that's okay. Because this is serious business. Stand up for yourself and learn to defend your work, your decisions, and your statements. If they are just trying to get to you identify this and ignore them. But ultimately accept that it's up to you, not them, to change how it all plays out. I know that is probably a tune you've heard before but it's true.
manish_lnmiit 13y ago
I cant think of my day started without reading the HN posts, I am so addicted to it because of the articles published here. its like precious to me. !!!!MY PRECIOUS!!!
noonespecial 13y ago
In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. Just watching a feel-good cartoon flick with the kids (Ratatouille) and there's this little gem at the end. I'd like to meet the guy who wrote that in. It sums it all up right there.
- nocman 13y ago
  Ugh. Ratatouille was the first Pixar movie I saw that was an utter disappointment (no, I haven't seen them all, but I've seen a fair number of them). It was so far from "feel-good" cartoon flick for me. Much more "I'll never get that two hours of my life back" movie. Not sure how close to two hours it actually was, but it felt like about 10 hours. Not sure what they were smoking when they made that one. I realize that tastes in movies vary widely, but I still find it hard to believe that people actually like that movie. To each his own, I guess.
  - noonespecial 13y ago
    That's what made the quote jump out at me. The movie itself was quite unremarkable. Seemed like saturday morning fare writ large to me. I wasn't really paying attention and then I heard that line float by... "Wait. What now?"
  - austengary 13y ago
    I can't tell if you're being ironic or the spirit of this thread flew right over your head.
  - freework 13y ago
    Well played.
  - huhtenberg 13y ago
    Wit without measure.
dylangs1030 13y ago
I salute the creators as well. As someone who goes out of his way to comment on every Show HN thread he sees, I believe most users are not cynical. I can see why most people could be considered harsh; this is why I try to specifically say I'm being constructive. I think the best way to go about giving feedback is to start with the negatives (the most glaring, preferably) and then end on a positive note with what the developer is doing properly. This tells the creators that they're doing good work and that they shouldn't abandon their babies (yet), they might just need to tweak things here and there. Conversely, tearing someone to pieces is mean and not productive, even if the points are valid. There are arguments for this that generally go along the lines of some Darwinian thinking where they shouldn't even be trying if they can't take criticism - that's unrealistic and unfair to expect of people. We all need to start somewhere. Help out fellow members. Hacker News is not a trial by fire - nor is it meant to encourage a death march. Those are two extremes. A comfortable middle ground where both criticism and praise are given is optimum. And I find there is rarely a submission so bad there's nothing good to be said about if at all.
nitrogen 13y ago
When to my surprise my creation made the front page of HN a couple years ago (and Gizmodo, Crunchgear, Engadget, ...), the second most disappointing thing was that there was no criticism on HN. Has HN become so much more critical since then? The first most disappointing thing was that I failed to capitalize on the attention to the extent that I had hoped.
briholt 13y ago
This is a reflection of humanity as a whole. No matter what you make, no matter how great it is, everyone will try to tear it down and maintain the status quo. It's human nature. The trick is to parse through the criticsm to find what is legit (and make changes accordingly) and what is just complaining and ignore it. Being able to judge feedback like this is an invaluable skill.
neverkn0wsb357 13y ago
When I see posts like this, I get the sinking feeling that HN is going the same way as reddit for 4chan /b/
calhoun137 13y ago
Yea i posted a project on here[1] and got completely ignored, i then posted the same project on /r/gamedev and spent all weekend as the top post with a steady steam of thank you so much this is awesome comments. I really would like the validation of the HN community, but that seems super hard to achieve, if not impossible. Doesnt mean im gonna give up, just gonna keep working hard and hope to get a little lucky. [1]http://calhoun137.github.com/animator http://calhoun137.github.com/animator
- chmike 13y ago
  One should not consider HN votes as a process equivalent to a democratic process where everyone expresses his opinion on the submission. Do not assume lack of interest of HN readers to your submission if it doesn't get to the front page. To make it less unfair regarding valuable submission, check /news frequently and upvote submission you consider of value.
theshadow 13y ago
You are right. When I first joined HN reading comments was my favourite part. I would be in awe of all these intelligent and insightful people, I would often skip entire articles and read the comments first. Things have really taken a major turn for worse in the last 6-8 months. Almost every single thing posted gets picked apart to bits and not in a good way. It has gotten so bad that I have actively started avoiding the comment section. My rule of thumb these days is only read comments in threads below 20 posts as these low comment threads are the ones with the highest chance of reading something interesting rather than just typical tired criticism of the of the article. I don't even consider threads with over 50 comments as these are almost always a complete cesspool of negatively.
Sindrome 13y ago
Welcome to the Internet. On here people act different because they are semi-anonymous.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
gfodor 13y ago
Unless you are building something for hackers, HN feedback is generally just noise. You might be able to get some legit usability feedback. But for the most part, you're just going to get a bunch of people fixating on one or two likely irrelevant issues (like what programming language you used, what database, if you are integrated with Facebook/Twitter/Instagram, your choice of font color.) There is a tendency for HN commenters to spout opinions that can be readily rejected with real data, I'm surprised more authors do not present their work with a list of common criticisms and data to counteract them. Really, the best thing you can get from HN is probably refining your skill at being able to separate useful criticism from non-useful. And a thick skin and confidence in your idea and execution, which is a pre-requisite for being able to digest constructive criticism and perceive who are just being Comic Book Guy haters.
Mordor 13y ago
I see what you did there.
jasonkester 13y ago
There are a lot of people who don't understand what this place is for. Hacker News is a cocktail party. It's a bunch of smart people getting together and shooting the breeze about whatever we see on the front page. If you understand that, you'll fit in fine. Lots of new users here don't understand that. If you spend any time on the internet, you're quickly trained that discussion forums are places for combat. The goal is to look as smart as possible while tearing everybody else down. To have an unrefuted comment is to win, and nobody is going to let you do that so they'll tear your comment apart line by line. Naturally, that person is a moron and needs to be told so, preferably by turning his own trick against him and tearing his comment apart. Stop me if this sounds familiar. That explains why the hardened slashdot veteran gets such a strange reception here. Have you ever been at a party where there was a guy who just didn't belong there? The belligerent know-it-all butting into conversations? The drunk guy in a room full of sober people? The uninvited casual racist? We've all seen what happens. People drift away from him wherever he goes, sometimes stranding some poor soul talking to him, but generally trying as best as possible to continue the party as normal and hoping he doesn't disrupt it further. Nobody wants to confront him and ask him to leave directly, but they all sure hope he'd get the hint on his own. That's where we are here today. Except it's a big room and there are quite a few uninvited intruders behaving badly. You'll notice that that guy at the party often doesn't realize that he's out of place. Look through this very thread and you'll spot a few of him, justifying their belligerent behavior and complaining that the rest of us don't get it because this is The Internet and that's how we're supposed to behave. But we don't behave that way. That's why it's so good here.
- kybernetyk 13y ago
  A cocktail party is filled with smalltalk. I don't want that for HN. I wan't in depth discussion where I can learn something. Removing all contrary points of view from a discussion makes it one-sided and turns it into smalltalk. As hackers we should have an open mind and accept that there are opinions contrary to ours. We should embrace this fact and not stamp everyone who doesn't agree with our views as an 'intruder'.
  - philbo 13y ago
weavie 13y ago
I would rather someone tell me why they aren't going to use my project, no matter how negative that just walk away and ignore it.
volkanvardar 13y ago
Criticism, strengthens smart people; enrage idiots. -Napoleon Bonaparte
revorad 13y ago
I've written up some tips on handling HN feedback on your apps - http://hrishimittal.com/post/45360001796/google-reader-alternatives http://hrishimittal.com/post/45360001796/google-reader-alter... Discuss here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5831504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5831504
eli_gottlieb 13y ago
Community, not species. Ok, so I'm snarking a bit, but I always say that resorting to "human nature" in conversation means you've given up on actually finding out.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
thoughtcriminal 13y ago
Posting to HN is pure win if you're playing Rejection Therapy: http://rejectiontherapy.com http://rejectiontherapy.com
score 13y ago
Two words: Rejection Therapy: http://rejectiontherapy.com http://rejectiontherapy.com
mcnemesis 13y ago
There are times when I've taken it upon me to believe that if I post something I've worked on to HN and it doesn't draw any attention (good or bad), that what I'd assumed to be 'important' in the judgement of my 'peers' is actually no. That way, I get myself simple, but effective feedback...
corresation 13y ago
More navel gazing.

212 points by dsowers 13y ago

I see great projects here on HN every day, but we are a species which loves cynicism. The comment threads can be especially hard on authors. To all the creators out there, I salute you.

tarr11 13y ago

Do you have something to share? Cmon, we're not that bad. :)

dsowers 13y ago
lol. I don't have something to share at the moment. I've felt "the eye" in the past, however.

hardwaresofton 13y ago

Other than this being the internet and developer-brain (read: I-could-have-built-that syndrome), maybe people do it to make up for the fact that you can't downvote "fair and balanced"?

nilkn 13y ago
You can downvote if you have at least 500 karma (recently learned this myself).
- pseut 13y ago
  Not submissions.
- hardwaresofton 13y ago
  upvoted for educational value

bichiliad 13y ago

Personally, I'd rather have "the eye" than posting something and expecting positive feedback. If I wanted that, I'd ask my mom what she thought. At least here, I know that if I get positive feedback, I'm either doing a really good job, or I'm just really good at riding a fad.

dquail 13y ago
Hahah. classic. Let the comments slamming the guy that comments on negative HN comments begin. I've had a few posts on the front page and have been lambasted each time.

jaysonelliot 13y ago

In my experience so far, posting to HN is more like carving my name on a tree in a mostly uninhabited forest. My various attempts to post an Ask or Show HN have mostly gone unnoticed. I think it would be great if there were a place that Ask / Show / Tell / etc. posts could get more traction in general.

zachwill 13y ago
Have you checked out this section? https://news.ycombinator.com/ask https://news.ycombinator.com/ask I normally never visit it, but it is available.
- yen223 13y ago
  "I normally never visit it" Therein lies the problem :) It doesn't matter if the parent visits it, if no one else does.
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    Then exploit this market inefficiency for yourself and fix that. I try to make it a point to visit the /newest page, and find that I have disproportionate influence on the content of Hacker News as a result. At slow times, it only takes about 3-4 votes in quick succession for a story to crack the top 30 on the front page. If a story is sitting on /newest with 3 votes, you can be the one that starts a voting cascade that brings it to the top. And as an added bonus, if you add an insightful comment, you can rake in hundreds of karma points as your comment is the first thing that thousands of readers see.
    - nutanc 13y ago
      I would say, now would be a good time to post something, as a lot of people would have checked out /newest after reading your comment :)
- vxNsr 13y ago
  Wow, I didn't know what that link was and never bothered to find out... I assumed it was something like a suggestion box or something.

colemorrison 13y ago

I SEE YOU. AND USUALLY IT IS NOT GOOD. (end quote)

colemorrison 13y ago
Geezus I was joking to whoever downvoted me. "I SEE YOU" is what Sauron says from "lord of the rings" and the "AND USUALLY IT IS NOT GOOD" was what the HN Sauron would say thank you very much. Damn, I thought everyone had seen LOTR...
- sillysaurus 13y ago
  Heh, it's nothing personal. We downvote memes or quotes that don't also contribute something unique. It's just quality control. Truly hilarious jokes, on the other hand, are highly upvoted.
  - huhtenberg 13y ago
    Who are these "we" you are referring to?

readme 13y ago

I salute the cynics. There's nothing worse than throwing good at a bad idea only to one day realize you've wasted your time, money, and effort. If one cynical comment is enough to derail your ambitions, you shouldn't be doing a startup.

pkfrank 13y ago
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with cynicism. It definitely serves a purpose, as you point out. The problem I see is that OPs tend to receive a reliable and sustained torrent of cynicism, and little else. Sure, there is value in those comments, and often super enlightening exchanges, but the default attitude of being the smartest-guy-in-the-room can get exhausting and counter-productive. Oftentimes would-be worthwhile discussion get buried or passed up for a bitter exchange with both parties just trying to prove their intellectual worth and cleverness.
sjtgraham 13y ago
The problem is that the very vocal snarky minority heap shit on absolutely anything and everything.
- GhotiFish 13y ago
  got some candidates that fit that description? It's easy to tell yourself that the only reason someone's objecting, is because they object to everything.
  - sjtgraham 13y ago
    It's blindingly obvious that there is extraordinary negativity on HN. - I don't think it's fair to call people out publicly (or necessary). Especially as they are unlikely to see my comment and have the opportunity to defend themselves. - I don't tell myself anything of the sort.
  - yen223 13y ago
    I have one. Me, 5 years ago :) The fact is, building something is hard. Criticizing something is easy. There's no special skill involved in picking apart somebody's project, making a big deal out of what is otherwise a minor flaw, and using that to dismiss that guy's work. That was a great way to make myself feel better about the fact that someone else built something, and I didn't.

Sealy 13y ago

I agree with you, but the people on HN much nicer then on other forums. Its hard when you've worked on something and then your post gets trolled to death by a 12 yr old who has a strong opinion. As much as I hate how direct they are, the comments are often true. I just wished the criticisms were more constructive at times.

sillysaurus 13y ago
the people on HN much nicer then on other forums. That's a common belief, but I've noticed that Reddit has recently been giving higher-quality comments than HN. Take a look: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5745707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5745707 vs http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1es4pf/soylent_the_powdered_healthy_food_substitute_just/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1es4pf/soylent_t... The Reddit comments are either positive, or they're skeptical in a way that doesn't try to force their opinion on you. They say things like "Hey, I noticed no one at Soylent seems to have a background in nutrition" rather than "I beg you, don't fund these guys! What they're doing is inherently dangerous." (The latter was actually a very common theme in the comments here about Soylent.)
- kybernetyk 13y ago
  Reddit != reddit. You are comparing a pretty small focussed subreddit to the front page of HN. Actually there are a few subreddits I'm subscribed to where I expect more insightful comments than on HN.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - yen223 13y ago
      Not unless you subscribed to /r/Futurology, which isn't a default subreddit.

zalew 13y ago

A lot of people recently try to enforce some back-patting culture. It's not what drives progress. Deal with it, you're not in pre-school anymore and nobody will give you a medal for participation. If you're unable to handle criticism and take out some value from people's opinions, you'll have a hard time in technology and in business.

sillysaurus 13y ago
Deal with it, you're not in pre-school anymore and nobody will give you a medal for participation. If you're unable to handle criticism and take out some value from people's opinions, you'll have a hard time in technology and in business. The problem is that people such as yourself make the world a worse place to live in and to experience. There's more to life than technology and business.
- zalew 13y ago
  this thread is about posting websites, not finding the meaning of life. congratulations on accomplishing writing the comment, have a cookie.
  - sillysaurus 13y ago
    HN is a community. It's not about "posting websites" any more than a club is about bbq's. And comments with aggressive overtones, such as yours, make the community worse.
    - boot 13y ago
      LIFE IS GAME OF CHESS DAMN IT. why am i so lonely.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mindcrime 13y ago
As true as that all may be, there is still no reason to be a dick to people who make "Show HN" posts. One can be critical without being offensive, insulting, rude or belligerent. But too many people seem to think that being obnoxious is The Right Thing To Do for some mysterious reason. Constructive criticism, preferably actionable feedback, is one thing. Saying "you suck" is quite another. I'm reminded of an old saying, which goes something like (paraphrasing here): "Everyone has their own battles to fight. Be kind to everyone, for you know not what battle they are fighting". Besides, it doesn't cost any extra to be polite and reasonable, versus being inflammatory and attacking.

beefsack 13y ago

To be honest, this isn't the place to be posting projects if all you want is for people to see what you're doing and you have a fragile ego. The feedback from here is very valuable if you take it objectively. I feel that if you want to have your ego stroked and have some exposure for your project, the best place to post it would be somewhere like Reddit. If you want to show some good minds in the field and get valuable advice, then post it here.

jonathanjaeger 13y ago

In general, I see a lot of cynicism on HN, but there's more positivity than other sites and overall a super smart audience. For example, you have to wade through a lot of crap to get a good YouTube comment on a high-trafficked video. Here you don't have that problem. You'll get some quick-to-judge comments but you'll also get great feedback (or at the very least, devils advocate type feedback that's worth discussing). Everything: with a grain of salt.

sjtgraham 13y ago
The audience isn't as a whole super smart. Sure there are very smart people that contribute to this community, but unfortunately they're outnumbered significantly by a lot of poorly socialised idiots. One of the recent watershed moments for me was when I think it was PG posted a poll on the user ages, and there was a inordinate amount (obviously false) of very elderly senior citizens using HN. I remember PG remarking upon it.

danso 13y ago

I think we're all in agreeance that trollish snark ("Great, Facebook for [insert subgroup]", "This sucks", etc.) is not helpful (and is almost always downvoted, or at least I'll downvote) But what about: "Why do I have to login to Facebook to see this?", "There are too many typos for this to be taken seriously?", "The font/colors are really hard to read", "It's broken in Firefox", "Facebook tried this in 2009 and they had [such and such] kinds of problems, what are you doing differently?" I dunno...Maybe people have different expectations when doing a "Show HN?" If you've worked hard on something, of course you should be encouraged ...but if you're pitching it as a viable startup idea...then you, IMO, shouldn't just want "atta boy/girl" comments...constructive criticism now could save you a lot of pain later on.

pyre 13y ago
I'd say there are probably quite a few people that post to Show HN just for peer validation. Sure the constructive criticism is helpful to improve the project, but comments like: Change the colors, my eyes are bleeding. Or: Ugh, another Bootstrap site? could be worded in a more positive fashion while still delivering the same content. Even examples like: Doesn't work in Firefox aren't useful, because there's no mention of the Firefox version and/or the operating system.

cyanbane 13y ago

I think the question you have to ask yourself when posting a project to HN is are you ready to receive blunt and sometimes uncivilized responses to your work(?). I think as long as you submit with that filter in full view that even when your work is chided relentlessly for some already obvious gap you can still sort through and determine legitimate criticisms. Say what you will about HN and its strong convictions and shallow snide callouts, but there are not a lot of avenues like it on the internet today for getting actionable feedback.

minimax 13y ago

I was much more cynical about new technology products before I tried to build and market one myself. That shit is hard, and most of the peanut gallery here one HN has no idea what it takes.

hatesyouall 13y ago

That's because almost everyone is a total moron and almost everything is utter shit. Fuck you, by the way.

joeblau 13y ago

I got more views, comments, and backlash on Reddit than on HN for my project. The HN community is analytical; they will always find a problem with your solution--sometimes people will offer answers and that's where this community shines.

ianstallings 13y ago

IMHO you should try your best to ignore what people say unless it's constructive to your work and life. Not everyone will love you and your work and that's okay. Because this is serious business. Stand up for yourself and learn to defend your work, your decisions, and your statements. If they are just trying to get to you identify this and ignore them. But ultimately accept that it's up to you, not them, to change how it all plays out. I know that is probably a tune you've heard before but it's true.

manish_lnmiit 13y ago

I cant think of my day started without reading the HN posts, I am so addicted to it because of the articles published here. its like precious to me. !!!!MY PRECIOUS!!!

noonespecial 13y ago

In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. Just watching a feel-good cartoon flick with the kids (Ratatouille) and there's this little gem at the end. I'd like to meet the guy who wrote that in. It sums it all up right there.

nocman 13y ago
Ugh. Ratatouille was the first Pixar movie I saw that was an utter disappointment (no, I haven't seen them all, but I've seen a fair number of them). It was so far from "feel-good" cartoon flick for me. Much more "I'll never get that two hours of my life back" movie. Not sure how close to two hours it actually was, but it felt like about 10 hours. Not sure what they were smoking when they made that one. I realize that tastes in movies vary widely, but I still find it hard to believe that people actually like that movie. To each his own, I guess.
- noonespecial 13y ago
  That's what made the quote jump out at me. The movie itself was quite unremarkable. Seemed like saturday morning fare writ large to me. I wasn't really paying attention and then I heard that line float by... "Wait. What now?"
- austengary 13y ago
  I can't tell if you're being ironic or the spirit of this thread flew right over your head.
- freework 13y ago
  Well played.
- huhtenberg 13y ago
  Wit without measure.

dylangs1030 13y ago

I salute the creators as well. As someone who goes out of his way to comment on every Show HN thread he sees, I believe most users are not cynical. I can see why most people could be considered harsh; this is why I try to specifically say I'm being constructive. I think the best way to go about giving feedback is to start with the negatives (the most glaring, preferably) and then end on a positive note with what the developer is doing properly. This tells the creators that they're doing good work and that they shouldn't abandon their babies (yet), they might just need to tweak things here and there. Conversely, tearing someone to pieces is mean and not productive, even if the points are valid. There are arguments for this that generally go along the lines of some Darwinian thinking where they shouldn't even be trying if they can't take criticism - that's unrealistic and unfair to expect of people. We all need to start somewhere. Help out fellow members. Hacker News is not a trial by fire - nor is it meant to encourage a death march. Those are two extremes. A comfortable middle ground where both criticism and praise are given is optimum. And I find there is rarely a submission so bad there's nothing good to be said about if at all.

nitrogen 13y ago

When to my surprise my creation made the front page of HN a couple years ago (and Gizmodo, Crunchgear, Engadget, ...), the second most disappointing thing was that there was no criticism on HN. Has HN become so much more critical since then? The first most disappointing thing was that I failed to capitalize on the attention to the extent that I had hoped.

briholt 13y ago

This is a reflection of humanity as a whole. No matter what you make, no matter how great it is, everyone will try to tear it down and maintain the status quo. It's human nature. The trick is to parse through the criticsm to find what is legit (and make changes accordingly) and what is just complaining and ignore it. Being able to judge feedback like this is an invaluable skill.

neverkn0wsb357 13y ago

When I see posts like this, I get the sinking feeling that HN is going the same way as reddit for 4chan /b/

calhoun137 13y ago

Yea i posted a project on here[1] and got completely ignored, i then posted the same project on /r/gamedev and spent all weekend as the top post with a steady steam of thank you so much this is awesome comments. I really would like the validation of the HN community, but that seems super hard to achieve, if not impossible. Doesnt mean im gonna give up, just gonna keep working hard and hope to get a little lucky. [1]http://calhoun137.github.com/animator http://calhoun137.github.com/animator

chmike 13y ago
One should not consider HN votes as a process equivalent to a democratic process where everyone expresses his opinion on the submission. Do not assume lack of interest of HN readers to your submission if it doesn't get to the front page. To make it less unfair regarding valuable submission, check /news frequently and upvote submission you consider of value.

theshadow 13y ago

You are right. When I first joined HN reading comments was my favourite part. I would be in awe of all these intelligent and insightful people, I would often skip entire articles and read the comments first. Things have really taken a major turn for worse in the last 6-8 months. Almost every single thing posted gets picked apart to bits and not in a good way. It has gotten so bad that I have actively started avoiding the comment section. My rule of thumb these days is only read comments in threads below 20 posts as these low comment threads are the ones with the highest chance of reading something interesting rather than just typical tired criticism of the of the article. I don't even consider threads with over 50 comments as these are almost always a complete cesspool of negatively.

Sindrome 13y ago

Welcome to the Internet. On here people act different because they are semi-anonymous.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

gfodor 13y ago

Unless you are building something for hackers, HN feedback is generally just noise. You might be able to get some legit usability feedback. But for the most part, you're just going to get a bunch of people fixating on one or two likely irrelevant issues (like what programming language you used, what database, if you are integrated with Facebook/Twitter/Instagram, your choice of font color.) There is a tendency for HN commenters to spout opinions that can be readily rejected with real data, I'm surprised more authors do not present their work with a list of common criticisms and data to counteract them. Really, the best thing you can get from HN is probably refining your skill at being able to separate useful criticism from non-useful. And a thick skin and confidence in your idea and execution, which is a pre-requisite for being able to digest constructive criticism and perceive who are just being Comic Book Guy haters.

Mordor 13y ago

I see what you did there.

jasonkester 13y ago

There are a lot of people who don't understand what this place is for. Hacker News is a cocktail party. It's a bunch of smart people getting together and shooting the breeze about whatever we see on the front page. If you understand that, you'll fit in fine. Lots of new users here don't understand that. If you spend any time on the internet, you're quickly trained that discussion forums are places for combat. The goal is to look as smart as possible while tearing everybody else down. To have an unrefuted comment is to win, and nobody is going to let you do that so they'll tear your comment apart line by line. Naturally, that person is a moron and needs to be told so, preferably by turning his own trick against him and tearing his comment apart. Stop me if this sounds familiar. That explains why the hardened slashdot veteran gets such a strange reception here. Have you ever been at a party where there was a guy who just didn't belong there? The belligerent know-it-all butting into conversations? The drunk guy in a room full of sober people? The uninvited casual racist? We've all seen what happens. People drift away from him wherever he goes, sometimes stranding some poor soul talking to him, but generally trying as best as possible to continue the party as normal and hoping he doesn't disrupt it further. Nobody wants to confront him and ask him to leave directly, but they all sure hope he'd get the hint on his own. That's where we are here today. Except it's a big room and there are quite a few uninvited intruders behaving badly. You'll notice that that guy at the party often doesn't realize that he's out of place. Look through this very thread and you'll spot a few of him, justifying their belligerent behavior and complaining that the rest of us don't get it because this is The Internet and that's how we're supposed to behave. But we don't behave that way. That's why it's so good here.

kybernetyk 13y ago
A cocktail party is filled with smalltalk. I don't want that for HN. I wan't in depth discussion where I can learn something. Removing all contrary points of view from a discussion makes it one-sided and turns it into smalltalk. As hackers we should have an open mind and accept that there are opinions contrary to ours. We should embrace this fact and not stamp everyone who doesn't agree with our views as an 'intruder'.
- philbo 13y ago

weavie 13y ago

I would rather someone tell me why they aren't going to use my project, no matter how negative that just walk away and ignore it.

volkanvardar 13y ago

Criticism, strengthens smart people; enrage idiots. -Napoleon Bonaparte

revorad 13y ago

I've written up some tips on handling HN feedback on your apps - http://hrishimittal.com/post/45360001796/google-reader-alternatives http://hrishimittal.com/post/45360001796/google-reader-alter... Discuss here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5831504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5831504

eli_gottlieb 13y ago

Community, not species. Ok, so I'm snarking a bit, but I always say that resorting to "human nature" in conversation means you've given up on actually finding out.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

thoughtcriminal 13y ago

Posting to HN is pure win if you're playing Rejection Therapy: http://rejectiontherapy.com http://rejectiontherapy.com

score 13y ago

Two words: Rejection Therapy: http://rejectiontherapy.com http://rejectiontherapy.com

mcnemesis 13y ago

There are times when I've taken it upon me to believe that if I post something I've worked on to HN and it doesn't draw any attention (good or bad), that what I'd assumed to be 'important' in the judgement of my 'peers' is actually no. That way, I get myself simple, but effective feedback...

corresation 13y ago

More navel gazing.