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Imagine you just took office as President, you could technically order this to stop. Would you really? If you do it, you'll piss off everyone in charge of home

by brousky 13y ago

Imagine you just took office as President, you could technically order this to stop. Would you really? If you do it, you'll piss off everyone in charge of homeland security. The second something bad happens, you know these people will do everything to undermine your authority. US elections are already about who's tough enough to protect the USA, imagine after that! Damn if you do, damn if you don't. Reality is the people's desire for safety and security is the reason surveillance like this exists. Unless the USA stops doing things that make other people want to kill innocent americans, homeland spying, as unacceptable as it may be, is probably the only way to provide that security. Not sure what the solution to shit like this is but I doubt it's like-minded representatives in Congress.

tnorthcutt 13y ago
Unless the USA stops doing things that make other people want to kill innocent americans Evil people, or people with evil intentions, exist. Period. Full stop. There will always be people who want to kill innocent Americans. Period. Full stop. Just as there will always be people who want to kill innocent $CITIZENS_OF_COUNTRY_NAME. Blaming an entire country for the evil actions and intentions of people who kill innocents is a copout of fantastic proportions. The existence of evil (killing innocents) does not excuse more evil (the government of the United States committing unmitigated mass-scale Orwellian spying on the citizens of the United States).
- brousky 13y ago
  Very true that evil exists and there will always be people with bad intentions. But you just can't dismiss that hatred saying it will always be at the scale it is no matter what you do. No blame is put on an entire country but on the actions of its military and whoever/whatever drives those actions. I also agree the existence of evil should not excuse more evil. Unfortunately, it seems it does in many people's mind.
- Myrmornis 13y ago
  I would expect people on this site to have a slightly more sophisticated understanding than that. There are these things called numbers. It's not a binary question of whether or not the actions of the USA are to blame for reactions against the USA, it's a question of whether the USA's actions cause more frequent aggressive reactions.
  - Floegipoky 13y ago
    That logic is flawed. Those numbers indicate correlation, not causation.
    - Myrmornis 13y ago
      That logic is flawed. Some subset of instances of correlation reflect causation. A huge portion of scientific enquiry is based around establishing correlation because prior mechanistic, theoretic and empirical study deems a causative link plausible. Would you wish to do away with the collection of data on correlation? My comment was made in a context in which a causative link is clearly plausible (that American foreign policy makes people angry). Therefore quantitative study of American foreign policy actions and instances of angry foreigners would be a perfectly valid exercise. "Correlation is not causation" is a gentle reminder not to make facile inferences found in undergraduate textbooks -- you appear to be under the impression that it's some sort of death blow to scientific epistemology.
brown9-2 13y ago
That's why I think the outrage over these things unfortunately doesn't last - a majority of Americans want the government to have this power to fight terrorism even if they won't admit it. The problem with a President who chooses to set aside enforcement or use of a law is that it's temporary and the next President is not bound by that decision. This isn't true of legislation.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
smacktoward 13y ago
Yeah, leadership is hard. That's why so few leaders bother with it.
bobwaycott 13y ago
So, as with so many other things, start working to change the cultural narrative that it may inculcate commitments in the People to (A) update their expectations of security to be in line with reality--namely that bad things happen and will happen, are unpredictable, and often unavoidable; (2) increase their valuation of basic rights and liberties as provided in the Constitution and its amendments, as well as an expectation of vociferous resistance to any encroachments and weakening of said rights and liberties in light of (A) by any person; (D) regularly invoke a zero-tolerance policy when elected or appointed political leaders trespass against (2).

by brousky 13y ago

tnorthcutt 13y ago

Unless the USA stops doing things that make other people want to kill innocent americans Evil people, or people with evil intentions, exist. Period. Full stop. There will always be people who want to kill innocent Americans. Period. Full stop. Just as there will always be people who want to kill innocent $CITIZENS_OF_COUNTRY_NAME. Blaming an entire country for the evil actions and intentions of people who kill innocents is a copout of fantastic proportions. The existence of evil (killing innocents) does not excuse more evil (the government of the United States committing unmitigated mass-scale Orwellian spying on the citizens of the United States).

brousky 13y ago
Very true that evil exists and there will always be people with bad intentions. But you just can't dismiss that hatred saying it will always be at the scale it is no matter what you do. No blame is put on an entire country but on the actions of its military and whoever/whatever drives those actions. I also agree the existence of evil should not excuse more evil. Unfortunately, it seems it does in many people's mind.
Myrmornis 13y ago
I would expect people on this site to have a slightly more sophisticated understanding than that. There are these things called numbers. It's not a binary question of whether or not the actions of the USA are to blame for reactions against the USA, it's a question of whether the USA's actions cause more frequent aggressive reactions.
- Floegipoky 13y ago
  That logic is flawed. Those numbers indicate correlation, not causation.
  - Myrmornis 13y ago
    That logic is flawed. Some subset of instances of correlation reflect causation. A huge portion of scientific enquiry is based around establishing correlation because prior mechanistic, theoretic and empirical study deems a causative link plausible. Would you wish to do away with the collection of data on correlation? My comment was made in a context in which a causative link is clearly plausible (that American foreign policy makes people angry). Therefore quantitative study of American foreign policy actions and instances of angry foreigners would be a perfectly valid exercise. "Correlation is not causation" is a gentle reminder not to make facile inferences found in undergraduate textbooks -- you appear to be under the impression that it's some sort of death blow to scientific epistemology.

brown9-2 13y ago

That's why I think the outrage over these things unfortunately doesn't last - a majority of Americans want the government to have this power to fight terrorism even if they won't admit it. The problem with a President who chooses to set aside enforcement or use of a law is that it's temporary and the next President is not bound by that decision. This isn't true of legislation.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

smacktoward 13y ago

Yeah, leadership is hard. That's why so few leaders bother with it.

bobwaycott 13y ago

So, as with so many other things, start working to change the cultural narrative that it may inculcate commitments in the People to (A) update their expectations of security to be in line with reality--namely that bad things happen and will happen, are unpredictable, and often unavoidable; (2) increase their valuation of basic rights and liberties as provided in the Constitution and its amendments, as well as an expectation of vociferous resistance to any encroachments and weakening of said rights and liberties in light of (A) by any person; (D) regularly invoke a zero-tolerance policy when elected or appointed political leaders trespass against (2).