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> I don't think this is an invasion of privacy at all. I vehemently disagree. Most companies will just hide the fact they are collecting (and often selling) us

> I don't think this is an invasion of privacy at all. I vehemently disagree. Most companies will just hide the fact they are collecting (and often selling) user data within slimy legalese. Consumer protection includes niceties such as warranties, and protection against false advertising, and clear display of nutritional information and safety warnings. Privacy also deserves the same treatment so users can make an informed decision, without having to wade through a hefty licence agreement. Edit: updated reply context

sjtgraham 13y ago
- "Most companies" sell user data? "Slimy?" Incredible bias here. Wouldn't be so bad if you provided some evidence to support up your position. - ToS of don't have to be "hefty", they can be written in plain English. Try using facts instead of loaded, emotional language to support your argument next time.
- anonyfuss 13y ago
  Companies I respect (including Apple) ask before gathering usage data; they don't hide it in the ToS that you and I both know nobody will read. Do you object to asking users? If so, why? My guess is that you know the answer will usually be "no". See also: opt-out vs. opt-in e-mail spam.
  - sjtgraham 13y ago
    By all means users should be asked for permission. I can't speak for others but I personally don't often read ToS and that is my choice. In the event that there is something there that I object to and I miss it because I didn't read something I was supposed to I'm not going to cry about it. What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect.
    - anonyfuss 13y ago
      > What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect. Literally ask for permission. That's what Apple does, as does almost every other traditional desktop software developer. On first launch, or when an error occurs, or when some other event that would involve sending personal/usage data to Apple occurs, they: - Ask if you want to send the data - Provide details on what kind of information will be sent (including, in some cases, providing access to the data itself) - ... and usually give you the option to always send that kind of data
      - sjtgraham 13y ago
        I agree this is also a good way to ask for permission. Does Apple do this in iOS? I don't recall ever seeing it outside of OS X. I imagine it's difficult to clearly express why the app wants to send this data within the constraints of a UIAlertView. iOS asks for permission before exposing location information, or access to contacts/photos and I can see why, the information is highly private. I don't agree that "this user pressed this button at this time" quite fits into the same category of privacy though.
        anonyfuss 13y ago
        > I agree this is also a good way to ask for permission. Does Apple do this in iOS? Yep, just once. > I don't agree that "this user pressed this button at this time" quite fits into the same category of privacy though. You're going to consume the user's resources by sending that information, and most users don't really want you to (for obvious reasons), so it seems most ethical to ask first.
- irrationalidiom 13y ago
  I didn't mean to say most companies sell user data, but rather of the companies that sell user data, most are not straight forward about it. Example: Onavo, Dolphin Browser, Opera Mini, Ask Toolbar What I am emphasising is that while they could ask plainly, and state they are collecting your data, and then selling it to 3rd parties (even if in aggregate), they do not. I would want users to be given a clear choice about what is happening with their data, and some companies have the integrity to do this.

sjtgraham 13y ago

- "Most companies" sell user data? "Slimy?" Incredible bias here. Wouldn't be so bad if you provided some evidence to support up your position. - ToS of don't have to be "hefty", they can be written in plain English. Try using facts instead of loaded, emotional language to support your argument next time.

anonyfuss 13y ago
Companies I respect (including Apple) ask before gathering usage data; they don't hide it in the ToS that you and I both know nobody will read. Do you object to asking users? If so, why? My guess is that you know the answer will usually be "no". See also: opt-out vs. opt-in e-mail spam.
- sjtgraham 13y ago
  By all means users should be asked for permission. I can't speak for others but I personally don't often read ToS and that is my choice. In the event that there is something there that I object to and I miss it because I didn't read something I was supposed to I'm not going to cry about it. What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect.
  - anonyfuss 13y ago
    > What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect. Literally ask for permission. That's what Apple does, as does almost every other traditional desktop software developer. On first launch, or when an error occurs, or when some other event that would involve sending personal/usage data to Apple occurs, they: - Ask if you want to send the data - Provide details on what kind of information will be sent (including, in some cases, providing access to the data itself) - ... and usually give you the option to always send that kind of data
    - sjtgraham 13y ago
      I agree this is also a good way to ask for permission. Does Apple do this in iOS? I don't recall ever seeing it outside of OS X. I imagine it's difficult to clearly express why the app wants to send this data within the constraints of a UIAlertView. iOS asks for permission before exposing location information, or access to contacts/photos and I can see why, the information is highly private. I don't agree that "this user pressed this button at this time" quite fits into the same category of privacy though.
      - anonyfuss 13y ago
        > I agree this is also a good way to ask for permission. Does Apple do this in iOS? Yep, just once. > I don't agree that "this user pressed this button at this time" quite fits into the same category of privacy though. You're going to consume the user's resources by sending that information, and most users don't really want you to (for obvious reasons), so it seems most ethical to ask first.
irrationalidiom 13y ago
I didn't mean to say most companies sell user data, but rather of the companies that sell user data, most are not straight forward about it. Example: Onavo, Dolphin Browser, Opera Mini, Ask Toolbar What I am emphasising is that while they could ask plainly, and state they are collecting your data, and then selling it to 3rd parties (even if in aggregate), they do not. I would want users to be given a clear choice about what is happening with their data, and some companies have the integrity to do this.