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>This is a not for profit organization that is strictly mandated by government procedures. It has a large budget. It has been around several decades. It serves

>This is a not for profit organization that is strictly mandated by government procedures. It has a large budget. It has been around several decades. It serves tens of thousands users a year and enjoys monopoly on the services it's users require. I'm familiar with that situation. Two things: 1.) You're in no danger, there's likely no accountability at any level and you don't have to be in a hurry to quit. As a relative newcomer, what you see as a death spiral is likely status quo for the organization - it's a zombie. 2.) You never had a chance at effecting any real change, so don't feel guilty about bailing.

examancer 13y ago
I too have been in a similar situation, and it was made less stressful by the #1 thing @incision mentions. Realize that as bad as your company is at building software, it is probably equally bad at other things, like: Recognizing that someone has checked out, or Firing someone. When I was in your situation I went into cruise control. I did the absolute minimum to avoid disciplinary action and began seeking out greener pastures. This was my first development job, so I wasn't sure everywhere else wouldn't be the same. I also didn't have a very strong resume yet. I also wanted to switch from Java to Ruby. It ended up taking me almost a year, partly because I wanted to be certain the next place would be an improvement. The next company I went to work for was awesome :-) OP, you appear to have plenty of experience and can probably be chose-y about your next move and still not have to wait very long. There are a lot of great places hiring.
chmike 13y ago
It might be a black spot in his career. It will be difficult to explain what went wrong while staying positive. Beside, this can strongly affect his moral. A back flip, if possible is in my opinion the right move: get the hell out of this.
- jychang 13y ago
  His morale, not his moral(s). If an organization is affecting his morals... that's REALLY bad.
  - chipaca 13y ago
    Or truly excellent.
- throwaway1979 13y ago
  If I was hiring him and he just said "wasn't a good fit" and didn't say anything bad about the organization, I'd be happy with that answer. Bad mouthing former employers in an interview is totally not cool in my books.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    Even if they were disorganised, behind the times and afraid of source control? Sometimes companies are just damn awful.
    - 3amOpsGuy 13y ago
      True, but it's still advisable just stick to laying out the facts. Don't add in any commentary on top. The interviewer can and will draw their own conclusions, both about the previous employer you're talking about, and more importantly, you.
    - donw 13y ago
      Never, ever, ever bad-mouth a previous employer during an interview. Ever. Even if you worked for Satan himself, and he had Kafka and Joseph Heller design the Waterfall development process, and your team lead had the IQ of a telephone pole and the personality of a Comcast customer service rep. You can say you weren't a good fit. That you felt the toolchain hurt developer productivity. Talk about how you want to be part of an organization that will let you hit your maximum level of achievement. Talk about how you hate bureaucracy because it puts barriers between you and the work that needs doing. That's all fine. Show me, the interviewer, how driven you are to create. But the second you start talking about how miserable you were, or how much of an asshole you thought your boss was, or about how much of an idiot your team lead was, you've basically cost yourself the job. You might be completely right, but if you start talking about this during an interview, you come across as an antisocial, whiny, needy child. If these problems were so upsetting, why did you stay so long? Why didn't you try to fix things? I want people in my company that will actively fix problems, not just complain about them. I, the interviewer, can't change anything about your last job, and complaining to me about it doesn't help either of us. I'm going to wonder how you'll be to work with if you can't put the past behind you. I'm also going to wonder what you'll say about me, and the team, when you leave. Will you paint us in the same light as the job from hell? If you whine about how much you hated your last job, all you do is turn on every red flag I have regarding personal interaction.
neumann 13y ago
From OP's description, I see the same situation and agree with these observations. Toxic is the right word - my personal experience is that hanging around to try and untangle/learn from the environment makes me super unhappy, and unmotivated.
Nursie 13y ago
Yeah, I've seen quite a few SMEs now for which this post basically describes the way the company operates. They put out bad software, slowly, but seem to just about keep on ticking over. Suggestions for improvements are often met with mild positive feedback and a sense of amusement that you think you can actually change the place for the better.

examancer 13y ago

I too have been in a similar situation, and it was made less stressful by the #1 thing @incision mentions. Realize that as bad as your company is at building software, it is probably equally bad at other things, like: Recognizing that someone has checked out, or Firing someone. When I was in your situation I went into cruise control. I did the absolute minimum to avoid disciplinary action and began seeking out greener pastures. This was my first development job, so I wasn't sure everywhere else wouldn't be the same. I also didn't have a very strong resume yet. I also wanted to switch from Java to Ruby. It ended up taking me almost a year, partly because I wanted to be certain the next place would be an improvement. The next company I went to work for was awesome :-) OP, you appear to have plenty of experience and can probably be chose-y about your next move and still not have to wait very long. There are a lot of great places hiring.

chmike 13y ago

It might be a black spot in his career. It will be difficult to explain what went wrong while staying positive. Beside, this can strongly affect his moral. A back flip, if possible is in my opinion the right move: get the hell out of this.

jychang 13y ago
His morale, not his moral(s). If an organization is affecting his morals... that's REALLY bad.
- chipaca 13y ago
  Or truly excellent.
throwaway1979 13y ago
If I was hiring him and he just said "wasn't a good fit" and didn't say anything bad about the organization, I'd be happy with that answer. Bad mouthing former employers in an interview is totally not cool in my books.
- Nursie 13y ago
  Even if they were disorganised, behind the times and afraid of source control? Sometimes companies are just damn awful.
  - 3amOpsGuy 13y ago
    True, but it's still advisable just stick to laying out the facts. Don't add in any commentary on top. The interviewer can and will draw their own conclusions, both about the previous employer you're talking about, and more importantly, you.
  - donw 13y ago
    Never, ever, ever bad-mouth a previous employer during an interview. Ever. Even if you worked for Satan himself, and he had Kafka and Joseph Heller design the Waterfall development process, and your team lead had the IQ of a telephone pole and the personality of a Comcast customer service rep. You can say you weren't a good fit. That you felt the toolchain hurt developer productivity. Talk about how you want to be part of an organization that will let you hit your maximum level of achievement. Talk about how you hate bureaucracy because it puts barriers between you and the work that needs doing. That's all fine. Show me, the interviewer, how driven you are to create. But the second you start talking about how miserable you were, or how much of an asshole you thought your boss was, or about how much of an idiot your team lead was, you've basically cost yourself the job. You might be completely right, but if you start talking about this during an interview, you come across as an antisocial, whiny, needy child. If these problems were so upsetting, why did you stay so long? Why didn't you try to fix things? I want people in my company that will actively fix problems, not just complain about them. I, the interviewer, can't change anything about your last job, and complaining to me about it doesn't help either of us. I'm going to wonder how you'll be to work with if you can't put the past behind you. I'm also going to wonder what you'll say about me, and the team, when you leave. Will you paint us in the same light as the job from hell? If you whine about how much you hated your last job, all you do is turn on every red flag I have regarding personal interaction.

neumann 13y ago

From OP's description, I see the same situation and agree with these observations. Toxic is the right word - my personal experience is that hanging around to try and untangle/learn from the environment makes me super unhappy, and unmotivated.

Nursie 13y ago

Yeah, I've seen quite a few SMEs now for which this post basically describes the way the company operates. They put out bad software, slowly, but seem to just about keep on ticking over. Suggestions for improvements are often met with mild positive feedback and a sense of amusement that you think you can actually change the place for the better.