4 ms·

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

73 points by ssclafani 13y ago

negativity 13y ago
The worst part is that this is almost completely unsurprising.
jared314 13y ago
Existing discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5829442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5829442
jgrahamc 13y ago
Hasn't this been done for years now? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_call_database http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_call_database
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - jgrahamc 13y ago
    I wasn't commenting on how to react to this, I was commenting on the fact that The Guardian article seems to indicate that this is new. That's not the case. Under G W Bush collecting of call records was widespread. The program to do that has been in place since at least 2001.
    - zwegner 13y ago
      FTA: > Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama. So, not surprising at all if you've been paying attention, but it's good to have confirmation.
supercanuck 13y ago
I'm gaining outrage fatigue.
- LoganCale 13y ago
  That's what they're counting on.
  - drivebyacct2 13y ago
    I've been arguing against it to anyone who will listen for 8+ years. What else am I supposed to do?
    - LoganCale 13y ago
      I don't know. For a nation of people that supposedly treasure their privacy, I don't know why we aren't taking to the streets and protesting all of this. There should be ongoing online protests as well, like with SOPA. The SOPA protest was kind of a fluke, though, it seemed like. It hasn't been successfully repeated since then.
ck2 13y ago
Actually, they are probably recording them in mass too. A couple former agents claim this and say it's being done under the guise that it won't be used in court but for post-analysis.
andreyf 13y ago
Not surprising. Metadata (i.e. who you talked to, for how long, etc.) does not currently have the same privacy protections as the actual content of your communications. Jacob Appelbaum, an associate of Wikileaks and core member of the Tor project, often talks about it [1]. The EFF and UN have been actively involved with analyzing whether this is appropriate, as well [2]: EFF believes that “metadata”—information logging individuals’ communication activities—is as sensitive as the content of communication and therefore deserves strong human rights protections. 1. http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/court_govt_can_secretly_obtain_email http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/court_govt_can_secretly... 2. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/internet-and-surveillance-UN-makes-the-connection https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/internet-and-surveilla...
GoodIntentions 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center Think of it as voice mail for everyone. Except you can't retrieve or delete anything.
sage_joch 13y ago
It sounds weird when you say it out loud: a huge part of our government operates in secret and without regard to the law. At this point I think everyone is just hoping that they are breaking the law for benevolent purposes (like fighting nuclear proliferation) rather than for malevolent purposes (of which there are many).
temphn 13y ago
Rather than simply accepting this, it is interesting to think about possible technical countermeasures against our bureaucratic overlords. Could we make an open source "Silent Circle phone" using the new mobile OSes from Ubuntu or Firefox? Perhaps it only works over Wifi or 4G, but uses packet shaping to mask a call and its associated metadata. With plummeting hardware prototyping costs, this is within the reach of one motivated individual. Relatedly, you might even make an app that causes a standard Android or iPhone to vibrate or glow when the call is being monitored by the NSA, showing the metadata they are remotely recording onscreen, to give some tangible feedback. I do believe the lack of visible feedback on privacy violations of this kind is a huge reason why they go unchecked. One peeping Tom is an outrage, a million is just a statistic. Tangibility changes that.
maresca 13y ago
They can hear everything you say at any given time, even if your phone is off. Only removing the battery can prevent this. If you think this is a stretch, you are sorely mistaken.
- LoganCale 13y ago
  Serious question: if this is the case, why does my phone's battery last significantly longer when sitting idle and not making calls vs. when I'm talking to people on it? Surely the energy cost of constantly transmitting audio would make the battery drain very quickly. Then there's the issue with the towers/lines being jammed by every phone constantly transmitting.
  - maresca 13y ago
    I'm not saying they are, I'm only saying they can.
veidr 13y ago
There is a line somewhere on the time horizon -- and I am pretty sure we have already crossed it -- where everything you say on any telephonic connection (phone, Skype, LINE, whatever) has to be presumed to be not only recorded and archived, but ultimately usable in court in the future (after they make the special court for retroactive wiretap warrants). Unencrypted email, chat, etc also. We (some would say "they" but as an American I think we citizens still bear the responsibility for what our government does -- the democracy is still mostly functional) already have the capability to record and store it all[1]. The US government doesn't admit to doing it, but I think it would be hopelessly naive to think they are not doing it (even where it isn't legal -- ever since G.W. Bush cemented the "torture first, ask permission later" doctrine after 9/11, this is how the USA rolls). I also feel the outrage fatigue supercanuck mentions, but I think there is a more pragmatic takeaway -- don't say anything on the phones anymore, don't write things in chats or insecure emails anymore, unless you are comfortable with those things being made public and/or used against you in court in the year 2025. I think that is probably already the reality -- and if not, it will be very soon. I used to feel this way when I went to China (as in, oh ha ha, those emails you sent me at my Chinese hotel about "Did you get my FedEx of material for the underground pro-democracy freedom fighters to expose the Tiananman Square massacre?" were really fucking funny, asshole), but I didn't in the USA. Now I do. [1]: the data center GoodIntentions points out in this thread is fascinating, and yet only one of the facilities for this kind of thing

73 points by ssclafani 13y ago

negativity 13y ago

The worst part is that this is almost completely unsurprising.

jared314 13y ago

Existing discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5829442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5829442

jgrahamc 13y ago

Hasn't this been done for years now? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_call_database http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_call_database

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- jgrahamc 13y ago
  I wasn't commenting on how to react to this, I was commenting on the fact that The Guardian article seems to indicate that this is new. That's not the case. Under G W Bush collecting of call records was widespread. The program to do that has been in place since at least 2001.
  - zwegner 13y ago
    FTA: > Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama. So, not surprising at all if you've been paying attention, but it's good to have confirmation.

supercanuck 13y ago

I'm gaining outrage fatigue.

LoganCale 13y ago
That's what they're counting on.
- drivebyacct2 13y ago
  I've been arguing against it to anyone who will listen for 8+ years. What else am I supposed to do?
  - LoganCale 13y ago
    I don't know. For a nation of people that supposedly treasure their privacy, I don't know why we aren't taking to the streets and protesting all of this. There should be ongoing online protests as well, like with SOPA. The SOPA protest was kind of a fluke, though, it seemed like. It hasn't been successfully repeated since then.

ck2 13y ago

Actually, they are probably recording them in mass too. A couple former agents claim this and say it's being done under the guise that it won't be used in court but for post-analysis.

andreyf 13y ago

Not surprising. Metadata (i.e. who you talked to, for how long, etc.) does not currently have the same privacy protections as the actual content of your communications. Jacob Appelbaum, an associate of Wikileaks and core member of the Tor project, often talks about it [1]. The EFF and UN have been actively involved with analyzing whether this is appropriate, as well [2]: EFF believes that “metadata”—information logging individuals’ communication activities—is as sensitive as the content of communication and therefore deserves strong human rights protections. 1. http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/court_govt_can_secretly_obtain_email http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/court_govt_can_secretly... 2. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/internet-and-surveillance-UN-makes-the-connection https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/internet-and-surveilla...

GoodIntentions 13y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center Think of it as voice mail for everyone. Except you can't retrieve or delete anything.

sage_joch 13y ago

It sounds weird when you say it out loud: a huge part of our government operates in secret and without regard to the law. At this point I think everyone is just hoping that they are breaking the law for benevolent purposes (like fighting nuclear proliferation) rather than for malevolent purposes (of which there are many).

temphn 13y ago

Rather than simply accepting this, it is interesting to think about possible technical countermeasures against our bureaucratic overlords. Could we make an open source "Silent Circle phone" using the new mobile OSes from Ubuntu or Firefox? Perhaps it only works over Wifi or 4G, but uses packet shaping to mask a call and its associated metadata. With plummeting hardware prototyping costs, this is within the reach of one motivated individual. Relatedly, you might even make an app that causes a standard Android or iPhone to vibrate or glow when the call is being monitored by the NSA, showing the metadata they are remotely recording onscreen, to give some tangible feedback. I do believe the lack of visible feedback on privacy violations of this kind is a huge reason why they go unchecked. One peeping Tom is an outrage, a million is just a statistic. Tangibility changes that.

maresca 13y ago

They can hear everything you say at any given time, even if your phone is off. Only removing the battery can prevent this. If you think this is a stretch, you are sorely mistaken.

LoganCale 13y ago
Serious question: if this is the case, why does my phone's battery last significantly longer when sitting idle and not making calls vs. when I'm talking to people on it? Surely the energy cost of constantly transmitting audio would make the battery drain very quickly. Then there's the issue with the towers/lines being jammed by every phone constantly transmitting.
- maresca 13y ago
  I'm not saying they are, I'm only saying they can.

veidr 13y ago

There is a line somewhere on the time horizon -- and I am pretty sure we have already crossed it -- where everything you say on any telephonic connection (phone, Skype, LINE, whatever) has to be presumed to be not only recorded and archived, but ultimately usable in court in the future (after they make the special court for retroactive wiretap warrants). Unencrypted email, chat, etc also. We (some would say "they" but as an American I think we citizens still bear the responsibility for what our government does -- the democracy is still mostly functional) already have the capability to record and store it all[1]. The US government doesn't admit to doing it, but I think it would be hopelessly naive to think they are not doing it (even where it isn't legal -- ever since G.W. Bush cemented the "torture first, ask permission later" doctrine after 9/11, this is how the USA rolls). I also feel the outrage fatigue supercanuck mentions, but I think there is a more pragmatic takeaway -- don't say anything on the phones anymore, don't write things in chats or insecure emails anymore, unless you are comfortable with those things being made public and/or used against you in court in the year 2025. I think that is probably already the reality -- and if not, it will be very soon. I used to feel this way when I went to China (as in, oh ha ha, those emails you sent me at my Chinese hotel about "Did you get my FedEx of material for the underground pro-democracy freedom fighters to expose the Tiananman Square massacre?" were really fucking funny, asshole), but I didn't in the USA. Now I do. [1]: the data center GoodIntentions points out in this thread is fascinating, and yet only one of the facilities for this kind of thing