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> presume that there's a difference between a young child who doesn't know any better, v.s. a young child who is being forced to do something they hate. Your d

> presume that there's a difference between a young child who doesn't know any better, v.s. a young child who is being forced to do something they hate. Your disclaimer is troubling. Are you saying one is somehow a lesser problem than the other, even if only by a degree? By that logic is it "less" of a rape to sexually assault a 30-year-old with a mental handicap who doesn't understand what's happening vs. assaulting a 30-year-old who fights back? Raping a six-year-old is rape. It doesn't make a difference whether he or she "hates" it or whether situation plays into some vulnerability. The victim is no more or less responsible because he or she had an awareness of what was happening, and the criminal is no less culpable for his or her actions.

corin_ 13y ago
That's a really good question... and I'm not sure. Certainly if, outside of the context of this topic if you asked me your mentally handicap question I would say that no, there's no difference. But think of it from a different angle, and separate each individual action. Let's define "causing physical pain" as a bad thing. Now take an example of child abuse in which physical pain is not caused - let's say fondling, or maybe consensual (ignoring subtle manipulation/etc.) sex with an older child - would you say that adding physical pain into that equation doesn't make it worse? And if adding one bad thing doesn't make it worse, what other things could you add before it does count as making it worse - murder? Now to come back to a more specific example - if an adult has a sexual relationship with a child which the child is, at the time, untroubled by, then is there a chance that they could come out of it without any harm being done? Yes. I've no idea what the stats are, but certainly there are adults who as children had relationships with adults and who, now they are adults, still don't think there was anything wrong with it. So however likely or unlikely that is to be the case, a consensual relationship has a higher than 0% chance of doing no harm. On the other hand, a forced relationship in which the child hates it at the time, already is at 100% doing harm - even if the child gets over it and lives a happy life, there was already some harm (however serious or not serious) caused at the time. So doesn't that mean the odds suggest one is better than the other? Even if only by a tiny amount? edit: Another thought - from a moral judgement point of view, I think it's also possible to see that there might be a difference in motivation from the abuser's point of view, who could look at a consensual relationship with a child as justifiable (i.e. deluded) vs. one who clearly knows the child doesn't want it (i.e. evil). Of course I'm sure that some of the consensual relationships (maybe the vast majority) involve adults who are just scheming and thinking about what makes their abuse easier, but some definitely justify to themselves that it's not OK. (Probably more likely with children older than 6, though.) Mental handicap example: difference between having sex with an adult who you believe to be consenting (but they're not, they just don't tell you because of their handicap) vs. having sex with an adult you know doesn't want to have sex.
- aasarava 13y ago
  You're trying to make the case that if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, then it didn't fall. If a stranger breaks into your home, goes through your belongings, and takes your prized possessions, it doesn't matter if you're well insured or if you're poor. It also doesn't matter if you're the extremely rare edge case who does not feel violated and doesn't press charges. The actual act of burglary occurred and the degree of it doesn't change based on your response. Likewise, when a child is molested, it doesn't matter if he or she is not harmed physically. (Indeed, the psychological effects might be the longest lasting and most painful in many cases.) Certainly, we can be thankful that they weren't physically harmed -- or in your rare edge case, that they are able to live the rest of their lives without any apparent repercussions. But that doesn't change the fact that there was an abuse of power (the other person was bigger, in a position of authority, more mentally capable, or more sober, etc.) And as I said before, it doesn't place any more responsibility on the child, nor any less culpability on the abuser. The response does not change the act.
  - corin_ 13y ago
    I disagree, on two points. Firstly, I do think there's a difference between a burglar who thinks "they're insured, I'm only taking items they won't have any personal attachment too (e.g. money) and other than the nuisance of claiming insurance they won't mind" as opposed to one who just doesn't care. And that really does make a difference - I've been the victim of credit card fraud once, I just notified by card provider and got the money right back, and therefore it effected me far less than if they broke into my home and stole my computer. And secondly: "when a child is molested, it doesn't matter if he or she is not harmed physically" Really? In the burglar analogy is that not the same as saying "if someone breaks into your home it doesn't matter what they steal"? <Got a bit confused here, not sure if I posted the above alone and then kept writing more below, or... so think this was an edit point here.> Let's say you and I were walking along and discovered an adult having sex with a young child somewhere. The adult runs off. I then walk up to the child and punch them in the face - do you think "well that punch doesn't matter"? Assuming not, why is it different if that pain is caused by the sexual abuser as opposed to a different person? And/or why is it different if that pain is caused by a punch after the abuse or by the abuse itself? You do then go on to suggest that actually it is better if the child isn't physically hurt.. which seems like disagreeing with yourself. > And as I said before, it doesn't place any more responsibility on the child, nor any less culpability on the abuser. First off, I hope in none of my comments have I at any time suggested any responsibility be assigned to children in these situations. I can't see where I might have, but if I have.. it was by accident. As to culpability, well I think it's a bad word since in my understanding of it that is much more binary in this sort of situation, and yes I would say both adults are 100% "culpable". Think of it another way: if you were forced to chose between a child having sex with an adult and the child not minding it (at the time of the abuse, who knows how they will feel in the future) or a child being physically forced to have sex with an adult and crying as it happens, would you still think "doesn't matter which"? In my opinion, your opinion is being clouded based on the fact that both situations are still extremely serious, and extremely wrong. In either situation you and I would both despise their actions strongly enough that it would be irrelevant to analyse the exact act and try to define exactly how bad it is. But that doesn't mean there still is a scale.

corin_ 13y ago

That's a really good question... and I'm not sure. Certainly if, outside of the context of this topic if you asked me your mentally handicap question I would say that no, there's no difference. But think of it from a different angle, and separate each individual action. Let's define "causing physical pain" as a bad thing. Now take an example of child abuse in which physical pain is not caused - let's say fondling, or maybe consensual (ignoring subtle manipulation/etc.) sex with an older child - would you say that adding physical pain into that equation doesn't make it worse? And if adding one bad thing doesn't make it worse, what other things could you add before it does count as making it worse - murder? Now to come back to a more specific example - if an adult has a sexual relationship with a child which the child is, at the time, untroubled by, then is there a chance that they could come out of it without any harm being done? Yes. I've no idea what the stats are, but certainly there are adults who as children had relationships with adults and who, now they are adults, still don't think there was anything wrong with it. So however likely or unlikely that is to be the case, a consensual relationship has a higher than 0% chance of doing no harm. On the other hand, a forced relationship in which the child hates it at the time, already is at 100% doing harm - even if the child gets over it and lives a happy life, there was already some harm (however serious or not serious) caused at the time. So doesn't that mean the odds suggest one is better than the other? Even if only by a tiny amount? edit: Another thought - from a moral judgement point of view, I think it's also possible to see that there might be a difference in motivation from the abuser's point of view, who could look at a consensual relationship with a child as justifiable (i.e. deluded) vs. one who clearly knows the child doesn't want it (i.e. evil). Of course I'm sure that some of the consensual relationships (maybe the vast majority) involve adults who are just scheming and thinking about what makes their abuse easier, but some definitely justify to themselves that it's not OK. (Probably more likely with children older than 6, though.) Mental handicap example: difference between having sex with an adult who you believe to be consenting (but they're not, they just don't tell you because of their handicap) vs. having sex with an adult you know doesn't want to have sex.

aasarava 13y ago
You're trying to make the case that if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, then it didn't fall. If a stranger breaks into your home, goes through your belongings, and takes your prized possessions, it doesn't matter if you're well insured or if you're poor. It also doesn't matter if you're the extremely rare edge case who does not feel violated and doesn't press charges. The actual act of burglary occurred and the degree of it doesn't change based on your response. Likewise, when a child is molested, it doesn't matter if he or she is not harmed physically. (Indeed, the psychological effects might be the longest lasting and most painful in many cases.) Certainly, we can be thankful that they weren't physically harmed -- or in your rare edge case, that they are able to live the rest of their lives without any apparent repercussions. But that doesn't change the fact that there was an abuse of power (the other person was bigger, in a position of authority, more mentally capable, or more sober, etc.) And as I said before, it doesn't place any more responsibility on the child, nor any less culpability on the abuser. The response does not change the act.
- corin_ 13y ago
  I disagree, on two points. Firstly, I do think there's a difference between a burglar who thinks "they're insured, I'm only taking items they won't have any personal attachment too (e.g. money) and other than the nuisance of claiming insurance they won't mind" as opposed to one who just doesn't care. And that really does make a difference - I've been the victim of credit card fraud once, I just notified by card provider and got the money right back, and therefore it effected me far less than if they broke into my home and stole my computer. And secondly: "when a child is molested, it doesn't matter if he or she is not harmed physically" Really? In the burglar analogy is that not the same as saying "if someone breaks into your home it doesn't matter what they steal"? <Got a bit confused here, not sure if I posted the above alone and then kept writing more below, or... so think this was an edit point here.> Let's say you and I were walking along and discovered an adult having sex with a young child somewhere. The adult runs off. I then walk up to the child and punch them in the face - do you think "well that punch doesn't matter"? Assuming not, why is it different if that pain is caused by the sexual abuser as opposed to a different person? And/or why is it different if that pain is caused by a punch after the abuse or by the abuse itself? You do then go on to suggest that actually it is better if the child isn't physically hurt.. which seems like disagreeing with yourself. > And as I said before, it doesn't place any more responsibility on the child, nor any less culpability on the abuser. First off, I hope in none of my comments have I at any time suggested any responsibility be assigned to children in these situations. I can't see where I might have, but if I have.. it was by accident. As to culpability, well I think it's a bad word since in my understanding of it that is much more binary in this sort of situation, and yes I would say both adults are 100% "culpable". Think of it another way: if you were forced to chose between a child having sex with an adult and the child not minding it (at the time of the abuse, who knows how they will feel in the future) or a child being physically forced to have sex with an adult and crying as it happens, would you still think "doesn't matter which"? In my opinion, your opinion is being clouded based on the fact that both situations are still extremely serious, and extremely wrong. In either situation you and I would both despise their actions strongly enough that it would be irrelevant to analyse the exact act and try to define exactly how bad it is. But that doesn't mean there still is a scale.