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"The reason women aren't, on the average, as measurably good at math as men is strictly due to cultural differences." Citation? Testosterone has been proven to

by natrius 18y ago

"The reason women aren't, on the average, as measurably good at math as men is strictly due to cultural differences." Citation? Testosterone has been proven to enhance spatial ability[1]. Why wouldn't there be other differences in cognition between the sexes? You haven't seen a study that proves such a difference with math, but where's the study that disproves such a difference? Until there is one, you're more wrong than he is, and your condemnation is ridiculous. [1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1006/brcg.1995.1269 http://dx.doi.org/10.1006/brcg.1995.1269

zackattack 18y ago
If you carefully read my post, you'll note that females employ different strategies when it comes to spatial rotation. Here's an article that illuminates how stereotype threat may cause most differences: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WJB-45K10P5-D&_user=5745&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000001358&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=5745&md5=3b0c82f2f267ace7cc84dd2117ead35a http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi... And, here's a fun fact, although I think IQ is a worthless measure beyond a few standard deviations, the person with the highest measured IQ is a woman. (Although, she famously misinterpreted the mechanics of the Monty Hall problem, but that's normal human statistical fallibility. See Steven Pinker et al for more on that.)
- thras 18y ago
  Interesting that the article you cite seems to claim that women are far more likely to go to pieces under the pressure of "stereotype threat" than men are. What a sexist you are.
  - zackattack 18y ago
    You don't understand stereotype threat. A white person's working memory will be significantly less affected by a prototypical derogatory race-slur than a black person subjected to a prototypical derogatory slur against the black race. Social context is important.
    - zackattack 18y ago
      Whoever downvoted me, would you please also do me the courtesy of responding to my post? Because I think I said something true and pertinent.
frossie 18y ago
Citations are legion. The most obvious and direct proof is the huge variation in math scores by country. If there was no social bias against women in mathematics, you would expect girls to be equally worse than boys in every country (they way girls are shorter than boys in every country, for example). eg see: http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11449804 http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1... and note the significant difference in the gender gap in math between, say, Turkey and Sweden. Arguing about mathematical skills is irrelevant to the debate anyway. I can tell you for certain that at least half the male programmers I deal with seem to possess no particular mathematical insight. The real question is not whether more women should be in computing. The question is whether there are women who would be enthusiastically in the field if they had been encouraged to be, and whether their absence is impoverishing the field. I have no data to answer to this question and I doubt you do either. PS. I am female, if that matters.
- natrius 18y ago
  Good article. I agree with pretty much everything you said. What I was really trying to address is how anyone who suggests that there may be innate factors that affect outcomes for groups of people is immediately tarred and feathered. There's nothing wrong with such hypotheses. What's wrong is when people use characterizations of groups to prejudge individuals.
- xiaoma 18y ago
  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/30/sapienza_girls_boys_statistics/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/30/sapienza_girls_boys_...

by natrius 18y ago

zackattack 18y ago

If you carefully read my post, you'll note that females employ different strategies when it comes to spatial rotation. Here's an article that illuminates how stereotype threat may cause most differences: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WJB-45K10P5-D&_user=5745&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000001358&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=5745&md5=3b0c82f2f267ace7cc84dd2117ead35a http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi... And, here's a fun fact, although I think IQ is a worthless measure beyond a few standard deviations, the person with the highest measured IQ is a woman. (Although, she famously misinterpreted the mechanics of the Monty Hall problem, but that's normal human statistical fallibility. See Steven Pinker et al for more on that.)

thras 18y ago
Interesting that the article you cite seems to claim that women are far more likely to go to pieces under the pressure of "stereotype threat" than men are. What a sexist you are.
- zackattack 18y ago
  You don't understand stereotype threat. A white person's working memory will be significantly less affected by a prototypical derogatory race-slur than a black person subjected to a prototypical derogatory slur against the black race. Social context is important.
  - zackattack 18y ago
    Whoever downvoted me, would you please also do me the courtesy of responding to my post? Because I think I said something true and pertinent.

frossie 18y ago

Citations are legion. The most obvious and direct proof is the huge variation in math scores by country. If there was no social bias against women in mathematics, you would expect girls to be equally worse than boys in every country (they way girls are shorter than boys in every country, for example). eg see: http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11449804 http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1... and note the significant difference in the gender gap in math between, say, Turkey and Sweden. Arguing about mathematical skills is irrelevant to the debate anyway. I can tell you for certain that at least half the male programmers I deal with seem to possess no particular mathematical insight. The real question is not whether more women should be in computing. The question is whether there are women who would be enthusiastically in the field if they had been encouraged to be, and whether their absence is impoverishing the field. I have no data to answer to this question and I doubt you do either. PS. I am female, if that matters.

natrius 18y ago
Good article. I agree with pretty much everything you said. What I was really trying to address is how anyone who suggests that there may be innate factors that affect outcomes for groups of people is immediately tarred and feathered. There's nothing wrong with such hypotheses. What's wrong is when people use characterizations of groups to prejudge individuals.
xiaoma 18y ago
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/30/sapienza_girls_boys_statistics/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/30/sapienza_girls_boys_...