5 ms·

Livermore scientist still reinventing the wheel at 94

104 points by tmoretti 13y ago

kbd 13y ago
This man has more mental energy at nearly 100 than I do in my 30s. What a gift he has.
beambot 13y ago
"Energy bills would be essentially zero," he says. I'm not sure how this statement is accurate (or relevant). Flywheels do not produce energy, they store kinetic energy. Other comments... (1) I seem to recall an automobile developed in the 60s or 70s by another National Lab that siphoned off stored power from a flywheel (driven by a smaller motor). IIRC, they had hellish issues with handling since the flywheel created gyro effects as the car turned. [Sorry, I couldn't find a link to the project. ] (2) The failure modes for flywheels aren't pretty. This seems to be the big detractor from other technologies like the MIT microturbine [1]. You wouldn't want one of 'em to experience catastrophic failure when attached to the cellphone in your pants. To get sufficient shielding, you have to substantially up the weight of the power storage unit, thereby killing your power-to-weight ratios. [1] http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/microengines.html http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/microengines.html
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  The story leaves a lot to be desired in terms of defining technology and specifying methods. Depending on how you buy/sell power, and if you have access to TOU metering, you could spin up flywheels with cheap power and sell it back when rates are higher. If you've got your own generation on site (solar PV, wind, tidal), you could bank excess energy with flywheels. In terms of storage, flywheel round-trip efficiency is very, very good, above 90% for well-designed systems. The problem has always been storage density and cost. Beacon Power produces 25KWh flywheels priced at around $1000 /Wh. Add into this the failure modes (Beacon's systems are installed underground in concrete culvert pipe with a several-ton lid cap), and remaining problems with precession (even the Earth's rotation around its axis peturbs flywheels), and they have some significant hurdles. For mobile uses (automobiles, etc.) these problems are compounded. My money's on large, cheap batteries for grid-scale storage (molten salt or liquid metal), though flywheels for short-cycle load/generation matching may play a role.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    Beacon Power produces 25KWh flywheels priced at around $1000 /Wh. Is that really a $25mil flywheel? Or should that have been $1000/KWh? For mobile uses (automobiles, etc.) these problems are compounded. I'm probably demonstrating considerable mechanical naivety with this question, but could you balance multiple flywheels in different directions and orientations to mitigate these problems?
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      Looks like I had my numbers a bit off. It's $10,000/KWh, putting each flywheel at about a quarter million. The cost data aren't clearly stated and I didn't find my earlier posts on this until just now: https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/21sJzeSwQ11 https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/21sJzeSw... Flywheels are used in cars, and the current generation of Formula One hybrids includes flywheel regenerative braking designs. While you can offset gyroscopic effects with counter-rotating flywheels, you still have the issues of loading the bearings of the individual flywheels due to vehicle vibration, movement, rotation, etc. Some of this can be mitigated by gimbal mounts, but that introduces increased volume requirements to the design, and avoiding gimbal lock requires four (rather than three) axes of rotation, one of which must be driven. It's one thing to have the flywheel last for the duration of a race, another for it to stand years of use in a private vehicle.
- DanBC 13y ago
  >Flywheels do not produce energy, they store kinetic energy. The article says, twice, that his design both stores and generates energy. Have they got something wrong? I'm aware that they're using the term 'flywheel' pretty broadly, and his newer device might not be a traditional flywheel. They use scare-quotes a couple of times when using the term flywheel, so they seem to be saying it's not a flywheel. > His latest project -- perfecting a prototype of his lightweight "flywheel," a cylindrical, rotating battery -- could revolutionize the energy industry, storing and creating energy better than any conventional electrobattery on the planet. > Post has been called the "father of the modern flywheel," a title he dismisses as "too generous." The rapidly spinning devices not only store energy with minimal losses, but they also generate it. The relevance is also mentioned in the story - he wanted to "apply physics to help solve the world's energy problems" and banks of these in power stations might help. Isn't storing the excess power generated by solar farms during the day a problem? Couldn't something like this help with that?
  - ars 13y ago
    You can't just generate energy from nothing. A flywheel stores energy, it doesn't create it. So yes, they got something wrong.
    - whatshisface 13y ago
      "We said, 'To heck with electromagnetic, we're going with electrostatic,'" Post says, laughing. It's clearly not just a normal flywheel, perhaps it can convert some other energy form into electricity? (We call them "generators" don't we?)
      - mc-lovin 13y ago
        I'd guess that phrase refers to how energy is put into and taken out of the flywheel: using electrostatic force rather than electromagnetic.
        EEGuy 13y ago
- contingencies 13y ago
  The Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage claims that, in comparison to batteries, flywheels are not as adversely affected by temperature changes, can operate at a much wider temperature range, and are not subject to many of the common failures of chemical rechargeable batteries. They are also less potentially damaging to the environment, being largely made of inert or benign materials. A flywheel can potentially have an indefinite working lifespan. Flywheels built as part of James Watt steam engines have been continuously working for more than two hundred years. Another advantage of flywheels is that by a simple measurement of the rotation speed it is possible to know the exact amount of energy stored. Flywheels with Magnetic bearings and high vacuum can maintain 97% mechanical efficiency, and 85% round trip efficiency. Why aren't these in wide deployment yet as local storage for renewable energy sources? The biggest problems seems to be overall mass, cost, and space efficiency. None are great concerns for long term energy storage solutions for off-grid buildings. In short, these things sound fantastic. Anyone know where to buy one large enough to store power for a small draw, solar sourced home? This site explains a lot more about the concept, and engineering considerations behind two functional prototypes: http://home.earthlink.net/~fradella/homepage.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~fradella/homepage.htm Flywheels in vehicles were the subject on an article in the Economist in late 2011: Road tests have shown that, thanks to modern materials and clever design, a flywheel as small as a hockey puck can reduce fuel consumption by more than one-fifth. In electric hybrids only 35% of the kinetic energy lost during braking is retrievable. With flywheels more than 70% is. http://www.economist.com/node/21540386 http://www.economist.com/node/21540386 And someone just got funded on Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1340066560/velkess-energy-storage http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1340066560/velkess-energ... .. they claim Energy storage flywheels have been in use for over 100 years and are some of the highest performing energy storage technologies ever developed. Traditionally, they have suffered one fatal flaw... they are extremely expensive! Velkess has invented a way of making energy storage flywheels at such low cost it will be dramatically less expensive than even the most economical energy storage technologies available today. Phys.org discussion of this effort: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-velkess-flywheel-flexible-energy-storage.html http://phys.org/news/2013-04-velkess-flywheel-flexible-energ...
  - 13y ago
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  The Oil Drum has a pretty good reference on flywheel technology and reasonably recent developments as well: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8428 http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8428
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  > I seem to recall an automobile developed in the 60s or 70s by another National Lab that siphoned off stored power from a flywheel (driven by a smaller motor). One possibly feasible application that comes to mind are automotive turbo chargers. Compared with current approaches, a flywheel does not actually seem that convoluted.
jckt 13y ago
"laptop running a sophisticated math program" I wonder what that is? Or is it just Mathematica or something?
- JamesArgo 13y ago
  99% sure it's Mathematica.
- perryh2 13y ago
  Scientists at Lawrence Livermore use a lot of software that I believe is not available to the public (e.g. scientific simulations). Mesquite is one custom LLNL software [1]. MATLAB is very common, but I didn't see much (if any) usage of Mathematica (intern last summer). [1] https://iscr.llnl.gov/annual_report/fy2005/subcontracts/kraftcheck.html https://iscr.llnl.gov/annual_report/fy2005/subcontracts/kraf...
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    If its written by the government, its required to be in the public domain.
    - DuskStar 13y ago
      Unless of course it's classified... (programs that simulated nuclear weapons come to mind)
    - voidlogic 13y ago
      I'd bet lots of things at Lawrence Livermore fall under national security and will not be in the public domain for a very very long time.
    - vidarh 13y ago
      If it's written by the federal government, it is not protected by copyright. But that does not mean it will necessarily be released. If you can't get your hand on it, the lack of copyright protection won't do you any good.
hkmurakami 13y ago
Bob Yamamoto, a mechanical engineer and principal investigator on the project, compares working with Post to being around a college student with 60 years of experience. Post, he says, exudes a level of enthusiasm that's hard to keep up with. Wow. What an inspiration. Reminds me of Dr. Hinohara, a physician and educator who has been contributing to the medical field since 1941 and remains active in the field today at the age of 101. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/23/shigeaki-hinohara-the-97y_n_190859.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/23/shigeaki-hinohara-t...
perryh2 13y ago
I worked at Lawrence Livermore as an intern last summer. There were many people, including Post, that have worked at the lab for their entire lives. It was normal to sit next to scientists that were well beyond retirement age during lunch. While a career at the lab may not come with the many luxuries offered at other opportunities in Silicon Valley, it didn't seem bad either. People (including myself) were very happy to work there. Post, as well as many others, were a huge source of inspiration and taught me to do what I am passionate about in my career.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  My friend from college has been shuttling between MIT and Lawrence Livermore for a few years now (he does particle detection for the nuclear fusion experiments). Having talked to him at length, I'm convinced that while a career at the lab may not be as flashy as some of the best careers across the bay, it would be an absolutely wonderful way to live life and contribute to the world through science. I'm not nearly smart enough to work there, but boy do I look up to those who do!
eric_j_j 13y ago
I lived down the street from this guy. Sharp as a tack.
waster 13y ago
"Independent of his age, he has ideas coming out of his mind minute-by-minute," Yamamoto says. "He's so full of energy from all these ideas he has over the weekend, that every Monday morning he can't wait to call me and talk to me about them." Sounds like a guy I'd like to know. Also loved the quote about him being like a college student with 60 years of experience.
perfunctory 13y ago
This must be the worst news website in terms of usability
lucb1e 13y ago
Offtopic: One day we're going to look back at websites like these and laugh. There is distracting, moving content to the right and to the bottom. And technically also to the left since it moves when you scroll. Share buttons to the left, right, top and bottom. Advertisements for other articles that you totally should read on the top, right, bottom, and semi-embedded in the article. The only thing missing is bolded "RELATED" headlines of other articles embedded in the post, like most other news websites nowadays have. This is getting out of hand if you ask me. The hitcounters of the nineties that another HN submission talked about a few days ago were nothing compared to this.

104 points by tmoretti 13y ago

kbd 13y ago

This man has more mental energy at nearly 100 than I do in my 30s. What a gift he has.

"Energy bills would be essentially zero," he says. I'm not sure how this statement is accurate (or relevant). Flywheels do not produce energy, they store kinetic energy. Other comments... (1) I seem to recall an automobile developed in the 60s or 70s by another National Lab that siphoned off stored power from a flywheel (driven by a smaller motor). IIRC, they had hellish issues with handling since the flywheel created gyro effects as the car turned. [Sorry, I couldn't find a link to the project. ] (2) The failure modes for flywheels aren't pretty. This seems to be the big detractor from other technologies like the MIT microturbine [1]. You wouldn't want one of 'em to experience catastrophic failure when attached to the cellphone in your pants. To get sufficient shielding, you have to substantially up the weight of the power storage unit, thereby killing your power-to-weight ratios. [1] http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/microengines.html http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/microengines.html

dredmorbius 13y ago
The story leaves a lot to be desired in terms of defining technology and specifying methods. Depending on how you buy/sell power, and if you have access to TOU metering, you could spin up flywheels with cheap power and sell it back when rates are higher. If you've got your own generation on site (solar PV, wind, tidal), you could bank excess energy with flywheels. In terms of storage, flywheel round-trip efficiency is very, very good, above 90% for well-designed systems. The problem has always been storage density and cost. Beacon Power produces 25KWh flywheels priced at around $1000 /Wh. Add into this the failure modes (Beacon's systems are installed underground in concrete culvert pipe with a several-ton lid cap), and remaining problems with precession (even the Earth's rotation around its axis peturbs flywheels), and they have some significant hurdles. For mobile uses (automobiles, etc.) these problems are compounded. My money's on large, cheap batteries for grid-scale storage (molten salt or liquid metal), though flywheels for short-cycle load/generation matching may play a role.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  Beacon Power produces 25KWh flywheels priced at around $1000 /Wh. Is that really a $25mil flywheel? Or should that have been $1000/KWh? For mobile uses (automobiles, etc.) these problems are compounded. I'm probably demonstrating considerable mechanical naivety with this question, but could you balance multiple flywheels in different directions and orientations to mitigate these problems?
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    Looks like I had my numbers a bit off. It's $10,000/KWh, putting each flywheel at about a quarter million. The cost data aren't clearly stated and I didn't find my earlier posts on this until just now: https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/21sJzeSwQ11 https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/21sJzeSw... Flywheels are used in cars, and the current generation of Formula One hybrids includes flywheel regenerative braking designs. While you can offset gyroscopic effects with counter-rotating flywheels, you still have the issues of loading the bearings of the individual flywheels due to vehicle vibration, movement, rotation, etc. Some of this can be mitigated by gimbal mounts, but that introduces increased volume requirements to the design, and avoiding gimbal lock requires four (rather than three) axes of rotation, one of which must be driven. It's one thing to have the flywheel last for the duration of a race, another for it to stand years of use in a private vehicle.
DanBC 13y ago
>Flywheels do not produce energy, they store kinetic energy. The article says, twice, that his design both stores and generates energy. Have they got something wrong? I'm aware that they're using the term 'flywheel' pretty broadly, and his newer device might not be a traditional flywheel. They use scare-quotes a couple of times when using the term flywheel, so they seem to be saying it's not a flywheel. > His latest project -- perfecting a prototype of his lightweight "flywheel," a cylindrical, rotating battery -- could revolutionize the energy industry, storing and creating energy better than any conventional electrobattery on the planet. > Post has been called the "father of the modern flywheel," a title he dismisses as "too generous." The rapidly spinning devices not only store energy with minimal losses, but they also generate it. The relevance is also mentioned in the story - he wanted to "apply physics to help solve the world's energy problems" and banks of these in power stations might help. Isn't storing the excess power generated by solar farms during the day a problem? Couldn't something like this help with that?
- ars 13y ago
  You can't just generate energy from nothing. A flywheel stores energy, it doesn't create it. So yes, they got something wrong.
  - whatshisface 13y ago
    "We said, 'To heck with electromagnetic, we're going with electrostatic,'" Post says, laughing. It's clearly not just a normal flywheel, perhaps it can convert some other energy form into electricity? (We call them "generators" don't we?)
    - mc-lovin 13y ago
      I'd guess that phrase refers to how energy is put into and taken out of the flywheel: using electrostatic force rather than electromagnetic.
      - EEGuy 13y ago
contingencies 13y ago
The Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage claims that, in comparison to batteries, flywheels are not as adversely affected by temperature changes, can operate at a much wider temperature range, and are not subject to many of the common failures of chemical rechargeable batteries. They are also less potentially damaging to the environment, being largely made of inert or benign materials. A flywheel can potentially have an indefinite working lifespan. Flywheels built as part of James Watt steam engines have been continuously working for more than two hundred years. Another advantage of flywheels is that by a simple measurement of the rotation speed it is possible to know the exact amount of energy stored. Flywheels with Magnetic bearings and high vacuum can maintain 97% mechanical efficiency, and 85% round trip efficiency. Why aren't these in wide deployment yet as local storage for renewable energy sources? The biggest problems seems to be overall mass, cost, and space efficiency. None are great concerns for long term energy storage solutions for off-grid buildings. In short, these things sound fantastic. Anyone know where to buy one large enough to store power for a small draw, solar sourced home? This site explains a lot more about the concept, and engineering considerations behind two functional prototypes: http://home.earthlink.net/~fradella/homepage.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~fradella/homepage.htm Flywheels in vehicles were the subject on an article in the Economist in late 2011: Road tests have shown that, thanks to modern materials and clever design, a flywheel as small as a hockey puck can reduce fuel consumption by more than one-fifth. In electric hybrids only 35% of the kinetic energy lost during braking is retrievable. With flywheels more than 70% is. http://www.economist.com/node/21540386 http://www.economist.com/node/21540386 And someone just got funded on Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1340066560/velkess-energy-storage http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1340066560/velkess-energ... .. they claim Energy storage flywheels have been in use for over 100 years and are some of the highest performing energy storage technologies ever developed. Traditionally, they have suffered one fatal flaw... they are extremely expensive! Velkess has invented a way of making energy storage flywheels at such low cost it will be dramatically less expensive than even the most economical energy storage technologies available today. Phys.org discussion of this effort: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-velkess-flywheel-flexible-energy-storage.html http://phys.org/news/2013-04-velkess-flywheel-flexible-energ...
- 13y ago
dredmorbius 13y ago
The Oil Drum has a pretty good reference on flywheel technology and reasonably recent developments as well: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8428 http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8428
_pmf_ 13y ago
> I seem to recall an automobile developed in the 60s or 70s by another National Lab that siphoned off stored power from a flywheel (driven by a smaller motor). One possibly feasible application that comes to mind are automotive turbo chargers. Compared with current approaches, a flywheel does not actually seem that convoluted.

jckt 13y ago

"laptop running a sophisticated math program" I wonder what that is? Or is it just Mathematica or something?

JamesArgo 13y ago
99% sure it's Mathematica.
perryh2 13y ago
Scientists at Lawrence Livermore use a lot of software that I believe is not available to the public (e.g. scientific simulations). Mesquite is one custom LLNL software [1]. MATLAB is very common, but I didn't see much (if any) usage of Mathematica (intern last summer). [1] https://iscr.llnl.gov/annual_report/fy2005/subcontracts/kraftcheck.html https://iscr.llnl.gov/annual_report/fy2005/subcontracts/kraf...
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  If its written by the government, its required to be in the public domain.
  - DuskStar 13y ago
    Unless of course it's classified... (programs that simulated nuclear weapons come to mind)
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    I'd bet lots of things at Lawrence Livermore fall under national security and will not be in the public domain for a very very long time.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    If it's written by the federal government, it is not protected by copyright. But that does not mean it will necessarily be released. If you can't get your hand on it, the lack of copyright protection won't do you any good.

hkmurakami 13y ago

Bob Yamamoto, a mechanical engineer and principal investigator on the project, compares working with Post to being around a college student with 60 years of experience. Post, he says, exudes a level of enthusiasm that's hard to keep up with. Wow. What an inspiration. Reminds me of Dr. Hinohara, a physician and educator who has been contributing to the medical field since 1941 and remains active in the field today at the age of 101. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/23/shigeaki-hinohara-the-97y_n_190859.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/23/shigeaki-hinohara-t...

perryh2 13y ago

I worked at Lawrence Livermore as an intern last summer. There were many people, including Post, that have worked at the lab for their entire lives. It was normal to sit next to scientists that were well beyond retirement age during lunch. While a career at the lab may not come with the many luxuries offered at other opportunities in Silicon Valley, it didn't seem bad either. People (including myself) were very happy to work there. Post, as well as many others, were a huge source of inspiration and taught me to do what I am passionate about in my career.

hkmurakami 13y ago
My friend from college has been shuttling between MIT and Lawrence Livermore for a few years now (he does particle detection for the nuclear fusion experiments). Having talked to him at length, I'm convinced that while a career at the lab may not be as flashy as some of the best careers across the bay, it would be an absolutely wonderful way to live life and contribute to the world through science. I'm not nearly smart enough to work there, but boy do I look up to those who do!

eric_j_j 13y ago

I lived down the street from this guy. Sharp as a tack.

waster 13y ago

"Independent of his age, he has ideas coming out of his mind minute-by-minute," Yamamoto says. "He's so full of energy from all these ideas he has over the weekend, that every Monday morning he can't wait to call me and talk to me about them." Sounds like a guy I'd like to know. Also loved the quote about him being like a college student with 60 years of experience.

perfunctory 13y ago

This must be the worst news website in terms of usability

lucb1e 13y ago

Offtopic: One day we're going to look back at websites like these and laugh. There is distracting, moving content to the right and to the bottom. And technically also to the left since it moves when you scroll. Share buttons to the left, right, top and bottom. Advertisements for other articles that you totally should read on the top, right, bottom, and semi-embedded in the article. The only thing missing is bolded "RELATED" headlines of other articles embedded in the post, like most other news websites nowadays have. This is getting out of hand if you ask me. The hitcounters of the nineties that another HN submission talked about a few days ago were nothing compared to this.