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Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some compan

Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some companies would (and some already do) include these 'free' people in their business model. There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary which at least allows you not to work somewhere else to be able to eat and sleep somewhere else than a friends couch (or floor). And if the company really can't afford that basic salary, I would double question if it's really worth for you to work for them.

estebank 13y ago
I've been seeing that a lot here in Europe, lots of people holding Masters degrees unrelated to IT doing unpaid/underpaid internships. I find the entire idea completely bonkers. I did an unpaid internship that lasted 5 months in South America... when I was 17, because it was needed to get my Electronics Technician HS diploma. Even then, some of my luckier fellow students got a token payment. I've been working since I started college, and even when underpaid at first, never had trouble finding work. Although I'm a college drop out, I didn't have trouble finding a job in a different continent even before coming here. I'm guessing that we are extremely lucky to be in our industry, as there is no lack of work, even outside of the Bay Area.
- RuggeroAltair 13y ago
  I'm originally from Italy, and I can tell you that so many of my friends had to go through unpaid internships which were 'offered' with the excuse of a learning opportunity but were basically considered just as free employees. The high unemployment rate pushes people to accept them to have at least more experience to use in their following job applications, but basically this created an ecosystem in which there is companies that count of a few employees working for free. I can also tell you that in most cases the owners of these companies are not exactly starving, so there isn't a real reason why they shouldn't pay for good work. Fortunately it seems that the startup culture is picking up a little, and hopefully this will improve the situation. But I agree with you, and here in the Bay we are fairly lucky.
mgkimsal 13y ago
You're forgetting all the foosball tables and sodas they have to provide for those free laborers (whoops - 'interns'). Those don't come cheap, you know.
- winter_blue 13y ago
  > Those don't come cheap, you know. The foosball table is not just for the interns, you know. It's for everyone. And soda is cheap. So yea, they do come for cheap.
- RuggeroAltair 13y ago
  It depends on where you are. In Europe free sodas are more rare. In Italy, at least until I left, I had never heard of free sodas at work. But I heard of a lot of free work 'for experience'.
crusso 13y ago
There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary You don't know that. Maybe the company is a totally new idea being started on a shoe string that can't afford to pay much of anything. Maybe the product or project is a "what the hell" kind of project that doesn't really have any revenue associated with it but won't be even attempted without some free or mostly free time. Where would the open source community be without people contributing to it for free? Yours is the kind of thinking that leads to the ever-increasing minimum wage, which sounds great at first blush but whose unintended consequence is the killing off of whimsical tough-to-start or high risk ventures while also denying real experience to workers who lack the job skills needed to actually be productive at the required minimum wage.
- jaehoony 13y ago
  Are the companies that new in a such tough and risky situation the usual ones hiring interns? I was under the impression companies like that would just want few core highly efficient workers.
- chasing 13y ago
  "How can I possibly start my whimsical high-risk venture if I have to pay my employees enough so they can afford food and shelter? Why does everything have to be stacked in favor of those greedy minimum wage earners?"
  - crusso 13y ago
    Always with the us-vs-them mentality. Maybe both sides are risking something. Maybe both sides have something to gain? Those ideas are hard to consider when you only have one perspective in mind.
    - jaehoony 13y ago
      I get the sense that you have your perspective in mind much more than your employee's perspective, if you think new-grads should work for you for free, just because you have this "whimsical" idea, and empty promise of learning experience. The risk and gain on each side is very far from fair, especially if the company is not a well established one.

estebank 13y ago

I've been seeing that a lot here in Europe, lots of people holding Masters degrees unrelated to IT doing unpaid/underpaid internships. I find the entire idea completely bonkers. I did an unpaid internship that lasted 5 months in South America... when I was 17, because it was needed to get my Electronics Technician HS diploma. Even then, some of my luckier fellow students got a token payment. I've been working since I started college, and even when underpaid at first, never had trouble finding work. Although I'm a college drop out, I didn't have trouble finding a job in a different continent even before coming here. I'm guessing that we are extremely lucky to be in our industry, as there is no lack of work, even outside of the Bay Area.

RuggeroAltair 13y ago
I'm originally from Italy, and I can tell you that so many of my friends had to go through unpaid internships which were 'offered' with the excuse of a learning opportunity but were basically considered just as free employees. The high unemployment rate pushes people to accept them to have at least more experience to use in their following job applications, but basically this created an ecosystem in which there is companies that count of a few employees working for free. I can also tell you that in most cases the owners of these companies are not exactly starving, so there isn't a real reason why they shouldn't pay for good work. Fortunately it seems that the startup culture is picking up a little, and hopefully this will improve the situation. But I agree with you, and here in the Bay we are fairly lucky.

mgkimsal 13y ago

You're forgetting all the foosball tables and sodas they have to provide for those free laborers (whoops - 'interns'). Those don't come cheap, you know.

winter_blue 13y ago
> Those don't come cheap, you know. The foosball table is not just for the interns, you know. It's for everyone. And soda is cheap. So yea, they do come for cheap.
RuggeroAltair 13y ago
It depends on where you are. In Europe free sodas are more rare. In Italy, at least until I left, I had never heard of free sodas at work. But I heard of a lot of free work 'for experience'.

crusso 13y ago

There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary You don't know that. Maybe the company is a totally new idea being started on a shoe string that can't afford to pay much of anything. Maybe the product or project is a "what the hell" kind of project that doesn't really have any revenue associated with it but won't be even attempted without some free or mostly free time. Where would the open source community be without people contributing to it for free? Yours is the kind of thinking that leads to the ever-increasing minimum wage, which sounds great at first blush but whose unintended consequence is the killing off of whimsical tough-to-start or high risk ventures while also denying real experience to workers who lack the job skills needed to actually be productive at the required minimum wage.

jaehoony 13y ago
Are the companies that new in a such tough and risky situation the usual ones hiring interns? I was under the impression companies like that would just want few core highly efficient workers.
chasing 13y ago
"How can I possibly start my whimsical high-risk venture if I have to pay my employees enough so they can afford food and shelter? Why does everything have to be stacked in favor of those greedy minimum wage earners?"
- crusso 13y ago
  Always with the us-vs-them mentality. Maybe both sides are risking something. Maybe both sides have something to gain? Those ideas are hard to consider when you only have one perspective in mind.
  - jaehoony 13y ago
    I get the sense that you have your perspective in mind much more than your employee's perspective, if you think new-grads should work for you for free, just because you have this "whimsical" idea, and empty promise of learning experience. The risk and gain on each side is very far from fair, especially if the company is not a well established one.